Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The TRANSLATION process

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    That's one of the stories. There are 3 more. And they contradict these statements.
    Some people are reporting "hearsay" rather than first hand knowledge. Joseph was the only one who had first hand knowledge of the translation process.

    However, the point you miss is this:

    There was translation in different places with different scribes and different conditions. And we would suspect a progression when gaining experience. Then you come in and say that this must mean that there were "contradictions"?

    That is a baseless accusation.

    -7up

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      No, HERE's the problem....

      Why in the world God provide the Urim and Thummim if Smith was just going to use the same seer stone he used for scamming neighbors? OR, why would Smith use the same process he did for "glass looking" when God supposedly provided the Urim and Thummim.
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      His brother said they were the same thing.
      They were the same thing or perhaps they worked in the same way. Reports say that the bow and breastplate with the Urim and Thummim were uncomfortable to work with; they caused Joseph eye strain, etc. which is one of the reason why he had to exclude light by using a hat or a curtain. Some suggest that he removed a stone from the bow and breast plate apparatus for convenience.

      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      So, you ignore the quote from Emma, wife who actually WAS a scribe, on what was happening in favor of your own opinion which is held to save Joseph Smith's bacon?
      I am not ignoring Emma's account. Everybody who worked with Joseph claimed that he could see things in a miraculous way. (Like seeing what she was writing when it would seem impossible.) That does not imply that Joseph did not have to study out the translation in his mind. It was still Joseph's translation, and Joseph would not continue until the scribe had written what he had envisioned or rendered as the translation. Accounts do testify that it took human effort in order to translate the plates.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      .... I think he forgot what he told to some, then other stories conflicted. It's not just about the "translation process" -- it's about MANY aspects of Smith's "prophetage".
      Joseph himself does not appear to discuss the translation process. It is OTHER people who gave these reports.

      -7up
      Last edited by seven7up; 05-14-2014, 01:16 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
        Joseph himself does not appear to discuss the translation process. It is OTHER people who gave these reports.

        -7up
        I'm not sure that's entirely true, but he DID dupe MANY people, and told conflicting stories that were repeated, and/or acted very inconsistently, and that was reported.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Why would the Urim and Thummim poses the same powers as a stone he found and during the trial explained it as having the below powers. I don't get this. He finds a stone that has the exact same powers as what he finds later that was from biblical times. How does that make sense?

          “With some labor and exertion he found the stone, carried it to the creek, washed and wiped it dry, sat down on the bank, placed it in his hat, and discovered that time, place and distance were annihilated; that all intervening obstacles were removed, and that he possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-Seeing-Eye.” (Purple account, Joseph Smith Testimony, 1826 trial)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
            Why would the Urim and Thummim poses the same powers as a stone he found and during the trial explained it as having the below powers. I don't get this. He finds a stone that has the exact same powers as what he finds later that was from biblical times. How does that make sense?

            “With some labor and exertion he found the stone, carried it to the creek, washed and wiped it dry, sat down on the bank, placed it in his hat, and discovered that time, place and distance were annihilated; that all intervening obstacles were removed, and that he possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-Seeing-Eye.” (Purple account, Joseph Smith Testimony, 1826 trial)
            Because he was not just a liar, he was a BAD liar.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
              Why would the Urim and Thummim poses the same powers as a stone he found and during the trial explained it as having the below powers. I don't get this. He finds a stone that has the exact same powers as what he finds later that was from biblical times. How does that make sense?

              “With some labor and exertion he found the stone, carried it to the creek, washed and wiped it dry, sat down on the bank, placed it in his hat, and discovered that time, place and distance were annihilated; that all intervening obstacles were removed, and that he possessed one of the attributes of Deity, an All-Seeing-Eye.” (Purple account, Joseph Smith Testimony, 1826 trial)

              It makes as much sense as the New Testament apostles attempting to understand the divine will of God by means of "casting lots", which was a way that things were done sometimes in the Old Testament.

              You probably think it is silly to see somebody who wants to know the will of God, so he/she starts throwing dice and trying to interpret what the numbers mean, but they actually did that.

              As for the seer stone and Urim and Thummim which was also a conception described in the Old Testament (better than "casting lots"). Lucy Mack Smith described the interpreters/urim and thummim that Joseph Smith had in his possession as follows:

              “On the morning of September 22, after Joseph had returned from the hill, he placed the article [the Nephite interpreters] of which he spoke into my hands, and, upon examination, I found that it consisted of two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. . . . He [Joseph Smith] handed me the breastplate spoken of in his history. It was wrapped in a thin muslin handkerchief, so thin that I could feel its proportions without any difficulty. It was concave on one side and convex on the other, and extended from the neck downwards, as far as the center of the stomach of a man of extraordinary size. It had four straps of the same material, for the purpose of fastening it to the breast.” (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother Lucy Mack Smith)

              In 1891 William Smith, Joseph Smith’s brother, was interviewed and he said:

              “Among other things we inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. We asked him what was meant by the expression “two rims of a bow,” which held the former. He said a double silver bow was twisted into the shape of the figure eight, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of a bow. At one end was attached a rod which was connected with the outer edge of the right shoulder of the breast-plate. By pressing the head a little forward, the rod held the Urim and Thummim before the eyes much like a pair of spectacles. A pocket was prepared in the breastplate on the left side, immediately over the heart. When not in use the Urim and Thummim was placed in this pocket, the rod being of just the right length to allow it to be so deposited. This instrument could, however, be detached from the breastplate and his brother said Joseph often wore it detached when away from home, but always used it in connection with the breastplate when receiving official communications, and usually so when translating as it permitted him to have both hands free to hold the plates.” (J. W. Peterson in The Rod of Iron I:3 (February 1924), 6—7.)


              Perhaps God prepared Joseph Smith earlier with an instrument in his youth that helped prepare him for the experience with the Urim and Thummim and the translation process. He may have even preferred the instrument that he used in his youth, but that is unclear because he appears to have been able to remove the stones from the breastplate and use them outside of it and it may have been difficult for people to distinguish between the stones from the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone because the stones themselves were often covered during the translation process to exclude outside light.

              (Note: some ancient sources suggest that the Urim and Thummim produced it's own light, which would explain why it would be useful to exclude ambient light.)

              -7up

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                Perhaps God prepared Joseph Smith earlier with an instrument in his youth that helped prepare him for the experience with the Urim and Thummim and the translation process.
                Wow! So, KNOWING that Smith was a glass looker (and used it for his own gain) God went ahead and provided the "Urim and Thummim" to Smith, NOT knowing that Smith would prefer the tools of his youthful money digging instead.

                PLEASE tell me that sounded better in your head than it did when you typed it.

                He may have even preferred the instrument that he used in his youth, but that is unclear because he appears to have been able to remove the stones from the breastplate and use them outside of it and it may have been difficult for people to distinguish between the stones from the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone because the stones themselves were often covered during the translation process to exclude outside light.
                So, he "broke" the breastplate, and it worked better!

                (Note: some ancient sources suggest that the Urim and Thummim produced it's own light, which would explain why it would be useful to exclude ambient light.)

                -7up
                So, perhaps this is your explanation for why he had to stick his head in his hat?

                When do you get to the part where the dog ate his homework?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  "While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:225-226).
                  - Joseph F. Smith
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    7up: He may have even preferred the instrument that he used in his youth, but that is unclear because he appears to have been able to remove the stones from the breastplate and use them outside of it and it may have been difficult for people to distinguish between the stones from the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone because the stones themselves were often covered during the translation process to exclude outside light.

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, he "broke" the breastplate, and it worked better!
                    Why do you think that "detaching" it or even removing the stones would mean that it is "broken"? It certainly seems more convenient and portable. That is likely why he preferred his own stone at first. Removing the Urim and Thummin from the breastplate allowed him to carry and use the instruments in a similar manner.

                    7up: Perhaps God prepared Joseph Smith earlier with an instrument in his youth that helped prepare him for the experience with the Urim and Thummim and the translation process.

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Wow! So, KNOWING that Smith was a glass looker (and used it for his own gain) God went ahead and provided the "Urim and Thummim" to Smith, NOT knowing that Smith would prefer the tools of his youthful money digging instead.
                    The tools were perhaps not important as he thought. As a young man, Joseph was seeking for many things, including treasure. That was not far-fetched from his point of view and in the environment that he was in. God gave Joseph the opportunity to search and seek for things which had far greater value. It was a lesson that Joseph had to learn. The stones themselves were arguably unnecessary (Much like I suspect that casting lots as found in the Bible was an unnecessary practice). However, God will be communicating to us on our level. According to the records, it appears that Joseph finished some of the translation without instruments.

                    If these instruments are what Joseph needed to help him exercise faith, start the translation, and learn how to translate ... then so be it.


                    7up: ... the Urim and Thummim produced it's own light, which would explain why it would be useful to exclude ambient light.)


                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, perhaps this is your explanation for why he had to stick his head in his hat?

                    That isn't MY explanation. It was said that he did this to "exclude" ambient light. It wasn't done exactly the same way each time they sat down to work on the translation. Sometimes he would have a curtain between himself and the scribe because the scribe needed light , but Joseph did not want light on the other side where he was viewing.

                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      "While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:225-226).
                      - Joseph F. Smith

                      We have many more records available to us than Joseph F. Smith had available to him.


                      -7up

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                        [I]7up: He may have even preferred the instrument that he used in his youth
                        The "instrument of his youth" was a seer stone - used for "glass looking". If he had used a Ouija Board "in his youth", would you be perfectly fine with him using THAT?

                        The whole thing is a sham. It's silly to use the same "instrument" he used to bilk people out of money - then use that to "transcribe" a supposedly heavenly message.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          The "instrument of his youth" was a seer stone - used for "glass looking". If he had used a Ouija Board "in his youth", would you be perfectly fine with him using THAT?
                          That's something that bothers me too. The idea of God using an object that had been used for dishonest and/or occult purposes goes against the spirit of 2 Chronicles 24:7-14, 2 Kings 23, and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10. Even if it was easier for Joseph, for the sake of others -- who would either question the divine nature of the translation, given that Smith used a similar process and the same instrument as in his immoral activities, or who might be encouraged to use "seer stones" themselves -- surely the same God who inspired 1 Corinthians would want to have a clear distinction between the immoral and the inspired.
                          Last edited by Kind Debater; 12-06-2014, 06:13 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
                            That's something that bothers me too. The idea of God using an object that had been used for dishonest and/or occult purposes goes against the spirit of 2 Chronicles 24:7-14, 2 Kings 23, and 1 Corinthians 8 and 10. Even if it was easier for Joseph, for the sake of others -- who would either question the divine nature of the translation, given that Smith used a similar process and the same instrument as in his immoral activities, or who might be encouraged to use "seer stones" themselves -- surely the same God who inspired 1 Corinthians would want to have a clear distinction between the immoral and the inspired.
                            It goes to the (in my opinion) narcissistic nature of Smith -- God allegedly provides Smith with a special interpretation apparatus, but Smith says in effect, "meh, no thanks, I'll do it my way".
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                              We have many more records available to us than Joseph F. Smith had available to him.


                              -7up
                              bb010314a.jpg
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                My take on it is this - Smith never translated anything. Sidney Rigdon modified "Manuscript Found" by Spalding, reworked it to be compatible with Campbellism, had Cowdery give Joe the finished product, and Joe and Oliver wrote the Book of Mormon. Meanwhile, in the process, John the Baptist appeared, ordained these two unbaptized men to the Aaronic priesthood and had them baptize each other and then RE-ordain one another. Somewhere along the line Joe began getting "revelations," became a prophet (false), and organized the Mormon Church.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X