Celebrated Australian atheist, political leader converts to Christianity at 85

[Doug Shaver]

God does care about reason and logic.

My reason and logic tell me that that statement is not consistent with "God doesn't really care how you come to believe in him."

[Tassman]

"But what about Trump?"

"like, really, really smart...a very stable genius" when he is clearly just self-aggrandising buffoon.

[Sparko]

"like, really, really smart...a very stable genius" when he is clearly just self-aggrandising buffoon.

Well you are the local expert on being a self-aggrandizing buffoon.

[JonathanL]

My reason and logic tell me that that statement is not consistent with "God doesn't really care how you come to believe in him."

It would be interesting if you could lay out your reasoning for coming to that conclusion.

[Doug Shaver]

It would be interesting if you could lay out your reasoning for coming to that conclusion.

I use the same reason and logic that Christians use to conclude that God cares about reason and logic.

[JonathanL]

I use the same reason and logic that Christians use to conclude that God cares about reason and logic.

I was more thinking of an analysis of the two statements in order to show how they're logically inconsistent with each other.

[Doug Shaver]

I was more thinking of an analysis of the two statements in order to show how they're logically inconsistent with each other.

I wasn't talking about logical consistency. I was talking about what someone would reasonably expect to be the case if they weren't antecedently committed to a religious dogma that required both statements to be true.

Most people would think it improbable that a God who valued reason and logic would be indifferent to whether his followers used them to make the most important decision of their lives.

[JonathanL]

I wasn't talking about logical consistency. I was talking about what someone would reasonably expect to be the case if they weren't antecedently committed to a religious dogma that required both statements to be true.

Most people would think it improbable that a God who valued reason and logic would be indifferent to whether his followers used them to make the most important decision of their lives.

From what I've read of your posts so far I didn't expect you to be the kind of person who'd use something so blatantly fallacious as "most people..." as an argument for anything.

[Doug Shaver]

From what I've read of your posts so far I didn't expect you to be the kind of person who'd use something so blatantly fallacious as "most people..." as an argument for anything.

If I were arguing "Most people believe X, therefore X is true," that would be fallacious. But that is not my argument.

[JonathanL]

If I were arguing "Most people believe X, therefore X is true," that would be fallacious. But that is not my argument.

I'm having a hard time finding any argument at all in your posts if I'm to be completely honest.

[Sparko]

I'm having a hard time finding any argument at all in your posts if I'm to be completely honest.

he is more interested in claiming a "gotcha" by twisting what I said into something else.

[JimL]

he is more interested in claiming a "gotcha" by twisting what I said into something else.

No, he's just making sense which isn't something you're interested in. To say that god gave you reason and logic but that he doesn't care about whether one uses it or not, well, that's really kind of unreasonable and illogical.

[Sparko]

No, he's just making sense which isn't something you're interested in. To say that god gave you reason and logic but that he doesn't care about whether one uses it or not, well, that's really kind of unreasonable and illogical.

except that is not what I said.

[JimL]

except that is not what I said.

Whether you said it outright or not is irrelevant, you implied it. People either think through their beliefs, make a personal decision one way or the other, ya know, using reason and logic, or they don't really believe, they're just unworthy sheep.

[Sparko]

Whether you said it outright or not is irrelevant, you implied it. People either think through their beliefs, make a personal decision one way or the other, ya know, using reason and logic, or they don't really believe, they're just unworthy sheep.

Sometimes you can't come to believe on a purely intellectual basis. It takes something happening to you personally to wake you up to see the evidence that was there all along and understand it. That is not abandoning reason and logic. For me, I was an atheist who looked at all the evidence and always found ways to dismiss it, or tell myself "I am a good person, even if those Christians are right, God would never send me to hell so I will be fine no matter what" - Then my Dad had a stroke, my mom's church prayed over him and despite the doctor's saying he was going to die or be a vegetable, he recovered. Coincidence, right? could be. Then after he recovered he started going to Church, and got saved. Stopped drinking (he was an alcoholic) and became a new man. More coincidence? personality change due to stroke? maybe. But it got me to look at the whole religion thing in a different light. I was open to believing where before I automatically dismissed everything. I started going to church, and really listening and thinking about it and became convinced that it was true. All of it. I got saved. I didn't abandon reason and logic. I actually started using it to listen and understand rather than as a shield to block and deny. Afterwards I started studying more and deeper, and found that the more I looked into it, the more logic and reason confirmed my faith rather than undermined it. But without that emotional kick in the pants, I might never have even looked with an open mind.