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Celebrated Australian atheist, political leader converts to Christianity at 85

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Afterwards I started studying more and deeper, and found that the more I looked into it, the more logic and reason confirmed my faith rather than undermined it. But without that emotional kick in the pants, I might never have even looked with an open mind.
    So, reason and logic led you to believe. Many atheists are former believers who were led away from their belief by reason and logic. What should that tell us about whether God values reason and logic?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Sometimes you can't come to believe on a purely intellectual basis.
      The alternative is to believe on a subjective basis.

      It takes something happening to you personally to wake you up to see the evidence that was there all along and understand it. That is not abandoning reason and logic. For me, I was an atheist who looked at all the evidence and always found ways to dismiss it, or tell myself "I am a good person, even if those Christians are right, God would never send me to hell so I will be fine no matter what" - Then my Dad had a stroke, my mom's church prayed over him and despite the doctor's saying he was going to die or be a vegetable, he recovered. Coincidence, right? could be. Then after he recovered he started going to Church, and got saved. Stopped drinking (he was an alcoholic) and became a new man. More coincidence? personality change due to stroke? maybe. But it got me to look at the whole religion thing in a different light. I was open to believing where before I automatically dismissed everything. I started going to church, and really listening and thinking about it and became convinced that it was true. All of it. I got saved. I didn't abandon reason and logic. I actually started using it to listen and understand rather than as a shield to block and deny. Afterwards I started studying more and deeper, and found that the more I looked into it, the more logic and reason confirmed my faith rather than undermined it. But without that emotional kick in the pants, I might never have even looked with an open mind.
      Personal testimony is no doubt important to you but it is not necessarily based upon reason and logic. It is based upon subjective feelings.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
        So, reason and logic led you to believe. Many atheists are former believers who were led away from their belief by reason and logic. What should that tell us about whether God values reason and logic?
        did you not even read what I said?

        smh.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          The alternative is to believe on a subjective basis.



          Personal testimony is no doubt important to you but it is not necessarily based upon reason and logic. It is based upon subjective feelings.
          That's kinda what I said, Tassy. sometimes subjective feelings and incidents can lead someone to believe. It pretty much did in my case. And THEN I started using reason and logic to see if what I believed was true or not. Before I had that subjective experience my mind was closed to even considering the idea of God. Kinda like yours is now. Maybe if God knocked you on your thick skull once you might open your eyes and see him.

          Revelation 3:20
          Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            Many atheists are former believers who were led away from their belief by reason and logic.
            So you say, but in my experience former believers only turn to "reason and logic" as a post hoc apology for having left.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              So you say, but in my experience former believers only turn to "reason and logic" as a post hoc apology for having left.
              I could say the same about my experience with former atheists who become Christians.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                That's kinda what I said, Tassy. sometimes subjective feelings and incidents can lead someone to believe. It pretty much did in my case. And THEN I started using reason and logic to see if what I believed was true or not. Before I had that subjective experience my mind was closed to even considering the idea of God. Kinda like yours is now. Maybe if God knocked you on your thick skull once you might open your eyes and see him.
                IOW you arrived at your subjective beliefs first and then used reason and logic to prove they were true. Do you not see the dangers of confirmation bias here?
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  IOW you arrived at your subjective beliefs first and then used reason and logic to prove they were true. Do you not see the dangers of confirmation bias here?
                  sigh.

                  Pretty ironic you talking about confirmation bias. It's like you just read what you want to read.

                  The emotional kick in the pants got me into Church. Made me open to the idea of God. Something you probably need to happen to you.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    I could say the same about my experience with former atheists who become Christians.
                    Well, now we're back where we started, aren't we?

                    I suspect most people (here, anyway) deconvert out of sheer laziness: once you've moved out of the house, mom and/or dad are no longer there to get you moving in the morning, and it's much easier to just sleep in on Sundays. Of course, those don't tend to turn into your typical angry internet atheist.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      sigh.

                      Pretty ironic you talking about confirmation bias. It's like you just read what you want to read.
                      Projection, methinks!

                      The emotional kick in the pants got me into Church. Made me open to the idea of God. Something you probably need to happen to you.
                      I'm not belittling your "emotional kick" by any means, far from it. What I'm saying is that your initial beliefs were subjective and then you confirmed them using reason and logic. In short, you began with the conclusion, God exists, and then set out to "prove" this to be true.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Projection, methinks!
                        Yeah you were projecting.


                        ]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Well, now we're back where we started, aren't we?
                          Not necessarily. I said I could say it, not that I do say it. I have a reason for not saying it. You do say it, and I assume you have a reason for saying it. The difference between those reasons might reveal something about a difference between our epistemologies.

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