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How not to illustrate your article

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  • How not to illustrate your article

    An article this week in Evolution news and views reporting on the latest instalment in the peppered moth wars includes the standard (false) claim about peppered moths and tree trunks:

    "Dr. Wells and others have shown that many of these pictures used dead moths, pinned in places that live ones never rest."

    Serendipitously, the website designer chose to illustrate this article with a picture of a live peppered moth resting in just such a place.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

  • #2
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    An article this week in Evolution news and views reporting on the latest instalment in the peppered moth wars includes the standard (false) claim about peppered moths and tree trunks:

    "Dr. Wells and others have shown that many of these pictures used dead moths, pinned in places that live ones never rest."

    Serendipitously, the website designer chose to illustrate this article with a picture of a live peppered moth resting in just such a place.
    FWIU this was true but only because the state of photography at the time made it extremely difficult to catch them momentarily resting in place and being relatively expensive made wasting shots prohibitive. Even if the moths were somehow secured against the tree trunks to facilitate the taking of pictures that in no way contradicts the point made that those which were darker were now in the majority since they blended against the dark soot-stained trees better than the light gray ones did.

    It should also be noted that as air quality vastly improved and the bark of the trees were no longer covered in black soot, the moths that were lighter in color quickly became the overwhelming majority since they once again blended against the bark far better than their darker kin.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      FWIU this was true but only because the state of photography at the time made it extremely difficult to catch them momentarily resting in place and being relatively expensive made wasting shots prohibitive. Even if the moths were somehow secured against the tree trunks to facilitate the taking of pictures that in no way contradicts the point made that those which were darker were now in the majority since they blended against the dark soot-stained trees better than the light gray ones did.

      It should also be noted that as air quality vastly improved and the bark of the trees were no longer covered in black soot, the moths that were lighter in color quickly became the overwhelming majority since they once again blended against the bark far better than their darker kin.
      I never understood how that was evolution. You basically had moths that came in a variety of shades, some dark, some light. When the trees were dark, the light ones got eaten because they couldn't blend in well enough, when the trees were light again, the darker ones got eaten more. At no time did one or the other variety vanish, or come into being.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I never understood how that was evolution. You basically had moths that came in a variety of shades, some dark, some light. When the trees were dark, the light ones got eaten because they couldn't blend in well enough, when the trees were light again, the darker ones got eaten more. At no time did one or the other variety vanish, or come into being.
        They called it "adaptation" when I was in school.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I never understood how that was evolution. You basically had moths that came in a variety of shades, some dark, some light. When the trees were dark, the light ones got eaten because they couldn't blend in well enough, when the trees were light again, the darker ones got eaten more. At no time did one or the other variety vanish, or come into being.
          Adapting to your environment is evolution. Typically it is a bunch of small changes that accumulate resulting in a larger scale change. And an accumulation of several larger scale changes that result in a major change.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Adapting to your environment is evolution. Typically it is a bunch of small changes that accumulate resulting in a larger scale change. And an accumulation of several larger scale changes that result in a major change.
            yeah but as you said when the trees got lighter, the lighter moths flourished again. They were always there. The light ones didn't change into dark ones or vice versa.

            It would be like lets say, you have a country, let's call it South Africa, where there are two types of people. White ones and Black ones. Now the White ones are more numerous and in control and run things. But then something happens and the black ones start killing off the white ones and pretty soon there are more black ones than white ones and the blacks are in control. Did the humans evolve form white to black? nope. Nothing changed other than the population density of each color.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              yeah but as you said when the trees got lighter, the lighter moths flourished again. They were always there. The light ones didn't change into dark ones or vice versa.

              It would be like lets say, you have a country, let's call it South Africa, where there are two types of people. White ones and Black ones. Now the White ones are more numerous and in control and run things. But then something happens and the black ones start killing off the white ones and pretty soon there are more black ones than white ones and the blacks are in control. Did the humans evolve form white to black? nope. Nothing changed other than the population density of each color.
              Evolution is all about leaving the most progeny. When the trees got darker those with the genes that caused them to be darker thrived and quickly started out producing the lighter colored variety to the point that the former rapidly became the overwhelming majority. When the situation was reversed the lighter colored moths were the ones that thrived and the darker variety has become exceedingly rare. The genes for both dark and light coloring still exist in the over all population but it was the environment that decided which would flourish and prosper. If the genes for variation didn't exist then the population would remain stagnant and make evolution impossible

              This is how evolution works.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                yeah but as you said when the trees got lighter, the lighter moths flourished again. They were always there. The light ones didn't change into dark ones or vice versa.

                It would be like lets say, you have a country, let's call it South Africa, where there are two types of people. White ones and Black ones. Now the White ones are more numerous and in control and run things. But then something happens and the black ones start killing off the white ones and pretty soon there are more black ones than white ones and the blacks are in control. Did the humans evolve form white to black? nope. Nothing changed other than the population density of each color.
                Evolutionists define all change as evolution. The whole system is bad liberal theology, bad philosophy, and word games. Oh, and a little bad science thrown in for good measure.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  Evolutionists define all change as evolution.
                  Um, no.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Um, no.
                    What? It's only slightly hyperbolic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      What? It's only slightly hyperbolic.
                      It's a good first step to acknowledge your claim was an exaggeration.

                      Many of those who don't understand evolution think it means that there are these colossal changes that just suddenly and with no apparent reason take place. Evolution is about small changes that cascade into other changes or a few unrelated small changes taking place that can begin to profoundly affect one another over time.

                      As I've explained before, evolution takes place because, essentially, it's unavoidable in that it is built right into the molecules. The chemistry of DNA makes it unavoidable due to the fact that DNA doesn't replicate perfectly meaning that each generation is going to be a little different from the one before it.

                      Now, any time you have imperfect self-replicators in an environment of limited resources, the result is going to be a tendency of those best suited to acquire and use the resources to produce more offspring.

                      This will continue to happen again and again, over and over as life changes and adapts to its environment

                      Furthermore, no means has ever been observed that would ever prevent numerous small changes from accumulating into larger scale changes over scores of generations.

                      Isn't it wondrous that God put into place such a marvelous process as evolution?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I never understood how that was evolution. You basically had moths that came in a variety of shades, some dark, some light. When the trees were dark, the light ones got eaten because they couldn't blend in well enough, when the trees were light again, the darker ones got eaten more. At no time did one or the other variety vanish, or come into being.
                        They've traced the initial mutation that resulted in the dark variant to about 1820. There wasn't a dark moth population before then.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          It's a good first step to acknowledge your claim was an exaggeration.

                          Many of those who don't understand evolution think it means that there are these colossal changes that just suddenly and with no apparent reason take place. Evolution is about small changes that cascade into other changes or a few unrelated small changes taking place that can begin to profoundly affect one another over time.

                          As I've explained before, evolution takes place because, essentially, it's unavoidable in that it is built right into the molecules. The chemistry of DNA makes it unavoidable due to the fact that DNA doesn't replicate perfectly meaning that each generation is going to be a little different from the one before it.

                          Now, any time you have imperfect self-replicators in an environment of limited resources, the result is going to be a tendency of those best suited to acquire and use the resources to produce more offspring.

                          This will continue to happen again and again, over and over as life changes and adapts to its environment

                          Furthermore, no means has ever been observed that would ever prevent numerous small changes from accumulating into larger scale changes over scores of generations.

                          Isn't it wondrous that God put into place such a marvelous process as evolution?
                          No, it's not "wondrous", because it's not a system God would put in place. At least not of the kind you ascribe to Him, which I view as blasphemous. That anyone could call such evil the work of God is beyond sickening to me. I think it is to many atheists too, which is why so many of them see Theistic Evolutionists as deluded. Whatever god would work through evolution isn't the God of the Bible, at most a demiurge or a devil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            No, it's not "wondrous", because it's not a system God would put in place.
                            That's an amazing display of hubris to claim to know the mind of God

                            I don't like something so that means God wouldn't do it or allow it. Sheesh.
                            Last edited by rogue06; 09-21-2018, 09:44 AM.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              That's an amazing display of hubris to claim to know the mind of God
                              Out of the heart the mouth speaks. We have that with Jesus and the Bible. What we have from Him shows a character totally at odds with evolution. A system built on a ruthless wiping out of the weak by the strong. A god who used evolution to create is not one who cares for it's creation.

                              Comment

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