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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    That's an amazing display of hubris to claim to know the mind of God

    I don't like something so that means God wouldn't do it or allow it. Sheesh.
    No, it's pure evil and against His revealed character. It goes against all He has declared to be wrong. So yeah, actively doing it is not something He would do. Allowing it as part of the Fall, maybe. That is totally different from what TE's describe, and what you yourself described.

    Comment


    • #17
      Can we keep this thread to being about how YECs shoot each other in the foot?
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Can we keep this thread to being about how YECs shoot each other in the foot?
        It's your thread, I'll leave.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          No, it's pure evil and against His revealed character. It goes against all He has declared to be wrong. So yeah, actively doing it is not something He would do. Allowing it as part of the Fall, maybe. That is totally different from what TE's describe, and what you yourself described.
          I think I'll bow out at this point to avoid brum sinking further into hysterica and misrepresentation.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Evolution is all about leaving the most progeny. When the trees got darker those with the genes that caused them to be darker thrived and quickly started out producing the lighter colored variety to the point that the former rapidly became the overwhelming majority. When the situation was reversed the lighter colored moths were the ones that thrived and the darker variety has become exceedingly rare. The genes for both dark and light coloring still exist in the over all population but it was the environment that decided which would flourish and prosper. If the genes for variation didn't exist then the population would remain stagnant and make evolution impossible

            This is how evolution works.
            It isn't evolution until something genetic happens in my opinion. Just shuffling various population densities around isn't evolution. Nothing has changed in the species.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              They've traced the initial mutation that resulted in the dark variant to about 1820. There wasn't a dark moth population before then.
              or they just kept getting eaten so they didn't see any.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                or they just kept getting eaten so they didn't see any.
                If they got eaten that fast they'd never reproduce. Any mutations that resulted in dark variants would quickly lead to that strain going extinct. Until the 1820s.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  If they got eaten that fast they'd never reproduce. Any mutations that resulted in dark variants would quickly lead to that strain going extinct. Until the 1820s.
                  not if it was a normal variation with light colored moths giving birth to both types, which I believe is the case.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    not if it was a normal variation with light colored moths giving birth to both types, which I believe is the case.
                    No, that's backwards. The dark allele is dominant. Two light moths can't produce dark offspring because they won't have any copies of the dark allele - unless a mutation occurs.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      No, that's backwards. The dark allele is dominant. Two light moths can't produce dark offspring because they won't have any copies of the dark allele - unless a mutation occurs.
                      ok so the dark moths give birth to both kinds. or the mutation is a regular occurrence. same point. Both light and dark occur naturally in the population. All that the environment is doing is allowing one or the other to live longer, but it is not changing the fact that the other variety still is being born, but just dying early. When the environment changes the other variety becomes more populous. nothing has changed genomically. Both varieties are still being bred in either case.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        ok so the dark moths give birth to both kinds. or the mutation is a regular occurrence. same point. Both light and dark occur naturally in the population. All that the environment is doing is allowing one or the other to live longer, but it is not changing the fact that the other variety still is being born, but just dying early. When the environment changes the other variety becomes more populous. nothing has changed genomically. Both varieties are still being bred in either case.
                        Roy is correct on this one. Genetic studies show the genetic mutation for producing the dark carbonaria morph happened in 1819 +/- 10 years.

                        The industrial melanism mutation in British peppered moths is a transposable element
                        van't Hof et al
                        Nature, 534, pages 102–105 (02 June 2016)

                        Abstract: Discovering the mutational events that fuel adaptation to environmental change remains an important challenge for evolutionary biology. The classroom example of a visible evolutionary response is industrial melanism in the peppered moth (Biston betularia): the replacement, during the Industrial Revolution, of the common pale typica form by a previously unknown black (carbonaria) form, driven by the interaction between bird predation and coal pollution. The carbonaria locus has been coarsely localized to a 200-kilobase region, but the specific identity and nature of the sequence difference controlling the carbonaria–typica polymorphism, and the gene it influences, are unknown. Here we show that the mutation event giving rise to industrial melanism in Britain was the insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex. Statistical inference based on the distribution of recombined carbonaria haplotypes indicates that this transposition event occurred around 1819, consistent with the historical record. We have begun to dissect the mode of action of the carbonaria transposable element by showing that it increases the abundance of a cortex transcript, the protein product of which plays an important role in cell-cycle regulation, during early wing disc development. Our findings fill a substantial knowledge gap in the iconic example of microevolutionary change, adding a further layer of insight into the mechanism of adaptation in response to natural selection. The discovery that the mutation itself is a transposable element will stimulate further debate about the importance of ‘jumping genes’ as a source of major phenotypic novelty.
                        As far as the rest of Wells' brutally bad lies, he completely ignore the work by the late British moth specialist Michael Majerus. Majerus spent the last two decades of his life studying and experimenting with Biston betularia. Here is his last experiment, published posthumously by the Royal Society in 2012.
                        Selective bird predation on the peppered moth: the last experiment of Michael Majerus
                        Cook et al
                        The Royal Society Biology Letters, 8 February 2012.DOI: 10.1098/rsbl.2011.1136

                        Abstract: Colour variation in the peppered moth Biston betularia was long accepted to be under strong natural selection. Melanics were believed to be fitter than pale morphs because of lower predation at daytime resting sites on dark, sooty bark. Melanics became common during the industrial revolution, but since 1970 there has been a rapid reversal, assumed to have been caused by predators selecting against melanics resting on today's less sooty bark. Recently, these classical explanations of melanism were attacked, and there has been general scepticism about birds as selective agents. Experiments and observations were accordingly carried out by Michael Majerus to address perceived weaknesses of earlier work. Unfortunately, he did not live to publish the results, which are analysed and presented here by the authors. Majerus released 4864 moths in his six-year experiment, the largest ever attempted for any similar study. There was strong differential bird predation against melanic peppered moths. Daily selection against melanics (s ≃ 0.1) was sufficient in magnitude and direction to explain the recent rapid decline of melanism in post-industrial Britain. These data provide the most direct evidence yet to implicate camouflage and bird predation as the overriding explanation for the rise and fall of melanism in moths
                        Contrary to Wells' lies the moths do rest on tree trunks approx. 35% of the time which is plenty more than enough for selection of the dark allele.
                        Last edited by HMS_Beagle; 09-21-2018, 01:43 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          ok so the dark moths give birth to both kinds. or the mutation is a regular occurrence. same point. Both light and dark occur naturally in the population. All that the environment is doing is allowing one or the other to live longer, but it is not changing the fact that the other variety still is being born, but just dying early. When the environment changes the other variety becomes more populous. nothing has changed genomically. Both varieties are still being bred in either case.
                          Roy is correct on this one. Genetic studies show the genetic mutation for producing the dark carbonaria morph happened in 1819 +/- 10 years.

                          The industrial melanism mutation in British peppered moths is a transposable element
                          van't Hof et al
                          Nature, 534, pages 102–105 (02 June 2016)

                          Abstract: Discovering the mutational events that fuel adaptation to environmental change remains an important challenge for evolutionary biology. The classroom example of a visible evolutionary response is industrial melanism in the peppered moth (Biston betularia): the replacement, during the Industrial Revolution, of the common pale typica form by a previously unknown black (carbonaria) form, driven by the interaction between bird predation and coal pollution. The carbonaria locus has been coarsely localized to a 200-kilobase region, but the specific identity and nature of the sequence difference controlling the carbonaria–typica polymorphism, and the gene it influences, are unknown. Here we show that the mutation event giving rise to industrial melanism in Britain was the insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex. Statistical inference based on the distribution of recombined carbonaria haplotypes indicates that this transposition event occurred around 1819, consistent with the historical record. We have begun to dissect the mode of action of the carbonaria transposable element by showing that it increases the abundance of a cortex transcript, the protein product of which plays an important role in cell-cycle regulation, during early wing disc development. Our findings fill a substantial knowledge gap in the iconic example of microevolutionary change, adding a further layer of insight into the mechanism of adaptation in response to natural selection. The discovery that the mutation itself is a transposable element will stimulate further debate about the importance of ‘jumping genes’ as a source of major phenotypic novelty.
                          Buried in all of the technobabble I think the highligted phrase is the key here. It is inferred. Through statistics. That doesn't meant that the gene didn't exist before then. There is no way to know. We didn't even know about DNA then.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            What? It's only slightly hyperbolic.
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123
                            Evolutionists define all change as evolution.
                            No, it is fundamentally false.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              My emphasis:
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              ok so the dark moths give birth to both kinds. or the mutation is a regular occurrence. same point. Both light and dark occur naturally in the population. All that the environment is doing is allowing one or the other to live longer, but it is not changing the fact that the other variety still is being born, but just dying early. When the environment changes the other variety becomes more populous. nothing has changed genomically. Both varieties are still being bred in either case.
                              If the mutation occurs, regularly or otherwise, then something has changed genomically.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                My emphasis:If the mutation occurs, regularly or otherwise, then something has changed genomically.
                                I should have said "if the variation is a regular occurance" given that the population will change from mostly light to mostly dark to mostly light depending on predation. The gene is obviously already there for both varieties and gets expressed regularly no matter what the dominant population is. The only thing that changes is how many of each variation is getting eaten at any particular time.

                                Comment

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