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Lord, Lunatic, or Liar - False Dichotomy?

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  • #16
    Knowingly dying for something one knows to be false/lie.

    1) Jonestown: Those who did commit suicide purely because Jones told them to is forever unknown - but watching your kids die and having to chose between swift poison and a bullet which might or might not be leaves a LOT of room for doubt about how many actually chose suicide in order to obey Jones. That said, those who did chose to obey Jones did so believing Jones to be some sort of prophet - they did not chose to die for a lie.

    2) Black Friday Suicides: There were indeed people who committed suicide rather than face financial ruin. The reasons are complex - loss of security, loss of status, shame, inability to face loved ones, et al. One that is notably absent is committing suicide knowing that the reason was false. There's no evidence that any of the suicides that day would have occurred had they known the crash wasn't real or that their financial status wasn't as bad as they believed. They did not chose to die for a lie.

    3) Samurai: This one is actually pathetic - a man who knows he is not dishonored doesn't commit suicide to restore what he hasn't lost. He might be led to believe his honor is lost when the facts would have proven otherwise - that's at least possible - but then he would have been committing suicide believing the lie, not in order to protect the lie. Even if we push credulity to the limit and assume he choses to protect his family/lord/whatever by taking the dishonor on himself and commits suicide he still isn't dying for the lie - but for loyalty. Only in Bizzaro World do the Apostles bear any resemblance to medieval samurai. Shy extreme circumstance, samurai don't die for a lie.

    None of these examples parallel the lives of the Apostles who were martyred for their faith. The ten men who would certainly know if Jesus returned or not all chose death rather than deny Him - which makes no sense whatsoever if Christ did not rise from the dead.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
      Cite me some examples please.
      There are many, many possible examples. I am a Baha'i, and there were hundreds of martyrs in the early years of the Baha'i Faith and tens of thousands since. Are they lunatics, liars or whatever? The lives of the early martyrs of the Baha'i Faith clearly parallel the early history apostles and believers martyrs of Christianity.

      History is a witness of millions of martyrs for every imaginable cause, up to a koolaid party in the jungles of South America. Most, believe it or not, were sincere in their beliefs right, wrong or lunatics.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-20-2014, 09:59 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        31 murders. 297 children (if memory serves). Nearly 600 more dead - mostly of poison but some of gunshot wounds. At least 300 were murdered (children cannot form requisite intent - especially not the infants) and the children were deliberately killed first - to make the parents less likely to resist. The atrocity at Jonestown was anything but a 'party' - only the truly ignorant would talk about it that way.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          There are many, many possible examples. I am a Baha'i, and there were hundreds of martyrs in the early years of the Baha'i Faith and tens of thousands since. Are they lunatics, liars or whatever? The lives of the early martyrs of the Baha'i Faith clearly parallel the early history apostles and believers martyrs of Christianity.

          History is a witness of millions of martyrs for every imaginable cause, up to a koolaid party in the jungles of South America. Most, believe it or not, were sincere in their beliefs right, wrong or lunatics.
          since you haven't shown any examples of people who stuck to their DELIBERATE lies under extreme pressure even threat of death...
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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          • #20
            Sigh. People forget that the context of the argument was that Lewis was targetting people who agreed with him about the historicity of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels. Whether the dilemma can be extended is an interesting exercise, but I think much more complicated.

            I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that
            people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral
            teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we
            must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus
            said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a
            level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the
            Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the
            Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a
            fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His
            feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
            nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to
            us. He did not intend to.

            Comment


            • #21




              Dang, I miss the Amen Feature.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • #22
                "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."
                Last edited by Paprika; 01-21-2014, 06:34 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                  since you haven't shown any examples of people who stuck to their DELIBERATE lies under extreme pressure even threat of death...
                  We do know that not every religion can be true and we know that there are martyrs from many religions. That means that people die for lies they believe in. As for dying/torture for deliberate lies, I will give generic examples:

                  People will suffer torture and death to prevent others from learning the truth behind lies they have told. Adultery, embezzlement, members of movements covering to protect other members. In these cases the person knows they are lying but will endure to prevent worse disaster on something they care about.

                  Psychologically, a repeated lie can become truth to that person. Their memory will convince itself that the lie is truth. By the time they come to torture and death they are so ingrained in the lie that they cannot differentiate between the lie and truth.

                  Grandiose delusion, not precisely a lie, would be lunacy, but a minor version could be a deliberate lie. If someone were to lie to make themself appear to be better than they actually are, it would be a lie to fulfill their delusion. They may hold to the lie so others would not think lesser of them.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                    since you haven't shown any examples of people who stuck to their DELIBERATE lies under extreme pressure even threat of death...
                    Who ever said these were deliberate lies? There are a number of possibilities, and deliberate lieing is the least possible scenario. I said most of these martyrs were most likely sincere including the apostles and early believers of Christianity. Being fallible humans they are not necessarily reliable in understanding what they claim to have witnessed, and it is not necessarily reliable what was later recorded over 70 to 100 years later.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-21-2014, 06:14 AM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Delightful fiction, but naïve simplistic theology.
                      And this coming from a person who can not logically articulate his theological views! Rich...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        Sigh. People forget that the context of the argument was that Lewis was targetting people who agreed with him about the historicity of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels. Whether the dilemma can be extended is an interesting exercise, but I think much more complicated.
                        And Paprika wins the thread....
                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Again, the issue is the fallible nature of humans, than as well as know. Most definitely not whether there were deliberate lies or not.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Your still missing the point. Your assuming these claims are true, because the fallible human testimony is spot on accurate concerning these claims. Again, it is not God, but fallible human testimony that is the potential problem.
                            Oh, it's this argument again, the one that puts all of written human history in doubt because we apparently can't trust a single thing those fallible human writers put to parchment.

                            The biggest problem with casting the early evangelists as lunatics or liars is that it neatly explains why they might have promoted the gospel message, but it doesn't even begin to explain why anybody else believed them, especially when the message was so offensive and contrary to cultural expectations (and this in a society where "We've always done it that way" was considered a forceful argument). You might expect the apostles to attract a small following under such circumstances but certainly not the critical mass needed to survive and thrive under the extensive persecution that early Christianity suffered.

                            The question to ask is not is it possible that the apostles were lying but rather is it probable they were telling the truth, and the best evidence we have suggests that they probably were.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Delightful fiction, but naïve simplistic theology.

                              Decided to become a troll eh?

                              Originally posted by shunyadragon
                              Your still missing the point. Your assuming these claims are true, because the fallible human testimony is spot on accurate concerning these claims. Again, it is not God, but fallible human testimony that is the potential problem.

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank
                              The testimony in the NT passes with flying colors. Your bizarre objections don't even pass the smell test.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                                Umm, C, the whole point of being a liar is that you don't have to tell the truth.

                                That includes your answers when asked if you are lying.
                                Included under the consistent part.

                                Why ever not?

                                Strike that. You're simply wrong. Every internally consistent work of fiction disproves it.

                                Just possibly, you're confusing lunacy with stupidity. Not so! There are plenty of highly intelligent crazies out there.
                                One, fiction isn't the same as a lie, second I've never seen any truly internally consistent fiction. There are always plot holes, not always obvious, but in my experience they are always there if you look closely enough.

                                "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

                                Lies just grow in magnitude and inconsistency the further you go. Eventually they become quite clearly lies.

                                Which means nothing if the author is lying!



                                See above.



                                Op. cit.

                                I understand that your conception of god can't lie, but C.S. Lewis was, quite pointedly, not speaking to you, but rather to those who disagree with you. What he ended up with was an apologetic for those who already agreed with him, otherwise unconvincing.

                                As ever, Jesse
                                There is absolutely no reason for such lies. No motive, especially looking at the history involved.

                                Comment

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