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New Bird/Dinosaur intermediate species found

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Certainly, if you would do your homework you would find that they are finding some intermediates.
    I have read of the pre-Cambrian, and any intermediates (that I have seen) are speculative.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

      Certainly, though in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Actually it does.

      Here is one example that I covered a few years back, an Echinoderm transitional, which is basically the ancestor of such creatures as starfish and sea lilies:

      Researchers have discovered the remains from an unusual cylindrical creature that lived approximately 520 mya (Cambrian) in the Anti-Atlas Mountains of southern Morocco that represents the earliest echinoderm ever discovered with five-point symmetry, meaning it's an early relative of sea urchins, sand dollars and starfish.

      This cigar-shaped creature, which was named Helicocystis moroccoensis, had a mouth on the top of its body which opened upward. On the other end is a little stalk (that anchored it to the seafloor) and cup like eocrinoids, constructed of checkered and somewhat irregular arrangement of mineralized plates. In-between was a spiraled body that if I read it right was largely made up of lattice-like calcite.

      Moreover, Helicocystis apparently could change its size and shape from short and stumpy to long and thin (extending up to 4 cm or 1˝") by using a spiraling arrangement of five ambulacra, or grooves coming from the mouth that opened and closed to capture bits of food floating in the water.

      Helicocystis is the oldest known echinoderm with five ambulacra and according to the lead researcher, Andrew B. Smith, a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum in London, represents a transitional form between the primitive spiral-bodied echinoderms such as Helicoplacus, which has an asymmetrical body plan, and crown-group pentaradiate echinoderms.

      Also unlike earlier helicoplacoids Helicocystis' mouth was on top rather than on the side and is surrounded by an arrangement of skeletal plates that resembles later echinoderms.

      So Helicocystis has a spiraled cigar-shaped body and stalk like the earlier helicoplacoids but the five-point symmetry thanks to the ambulacra and mouth more like what we see in today's echinoderms. That definitely makes it an intermediate form.

      As the researchers note, "By filling an important gap, this fossil reveals the common pattern that underpins the body plans of the two major echinoderm clades (pelmatozoans and eleutherozoans), showing that differential growth played an important role in their divergence."


      There are other examples such as lobopods (basically worms with legs) which occupy a transitional morphological position between several living phyla most notably between arthropods (such as Opabinia and Anomalocaris) and worms. The lobopod Kerygmachela kierkegaardi also indicates an evolutionary link between lobopods and the clade consisting of biramous-limbed arthropods.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        I have read of the pre-Cambrian, and any intermediates (that I have seen) are speculative.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        'I have read. . .' is not an intelligible reference. As a layman states without any education in the science of evolution, and an 'Intelligent Design' religious agenda.

        Not a meaningful response I could respond to.

        Hint: Your 'arguing from vague ignorance' without scientific references. rogue06 provides the references to document the scientific perspective. You have provided nothing.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-04-2019, 06:40 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          This cigar-shaped creature, which was named Helicocystis moroccoensis, had a mouth on the top of its body which opened upward. On the other end is a little stalk...
          But it appears that Helicocystis moroccoensis is part of the Cambrian explosion:

          Source: Slate

          More than twice as old as the most ancient dinosaur fossil, Helicocystis moroccoensis lived during the Cambrian Explosion...

          Source

          © Copyright Original Source



          There are other examples such as lobopods (basically worms with legs) which occupy a transitional morphological position between several living phyla most notably between arthropods (such as Opabinia and Anomalocaris) and worms. The lobopod Kerygmachela kierkegaardi also indicates an evolutionary link between lobopods and the clade consisting of biramous-limbed arthropods.
          Though Kerygmachela kierkegaardi also appears to be Cambrian.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But it appears that Helicocystis moroccoensis is part of the Cambrian explosion:

            Source: Slate

            More than twice as old as the most ancient dinosaur fossil, Helicocystis moroccoensis lived during the Cambrian Explosion...

            Source

            © Copyright Original Source




            Though Kerygmachela kierkegaardi also appears to be Cambrian.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Um, Lee?

            You said that "in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't." So naturally I provided examples from the Cambrian explosion (which was more like a slow fuse anyway)

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              You said that "in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't." So naturally I provided examples from the Cambrian explosion (which was more like a slow fuse anyway)
              Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc. They should be found in pre-Cambrian layers of the fossil record.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc. They should be found in pre-Cambrian layers of the fossil record.
                Only if you assume the Ediacaran biota are the ancestors of Cambrian animals. That's currently the subject of considerable debate.

                In any case, a quick google search pulled up plenty of images of potential trilobite ancestors, to handle just one example you cite:
                http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Fossil_G...srelatives.htm

                Why don't you do searches like that for yourself before asking others to do them for you?
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc. They should be found in pre-Cambrian layers of the fossil record.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Recently, in the Precambrian Lakshanhatti Dolomite Member (LDM) in south-central India, scientists have observed how stromatolites evolved over time from thin, flat fan-shaped structures to having more of a clotted texture that is crisscrossed by numerous winding tubular voids.

                  Also, keep in mind that when we go back to Precambrian and Early Cambrian times organisms belonging to separate phyla converge in morphology meaning that most of them possess morphologies that bear similarities to more than one phylum. They are truly basal organisms. But as they increased in numbers and began diversifying they began to show more specific traits.

                  For instance, one of the most prevalent organisms in Precambrian times were worms who's burrows and trails fossilized. By the Late Precambrian we can see a definite increase in the diversity of these organisms through changes in feeding behaviors and how they moved.

                  Further, Anomalocaris, which originated in the from the Precambrian and also lived during the Cambrian, had a pair of segmented appendages, which indicate arthropod affinities, but it also had what appears to be lobopod legs. The related Opabinia also apparently had lobopod legs. Other rare Cambrian and Precambrian fossils show some promise of shedding more light on relationships. For example, Spriggina, another Precambrian animal, has a head shield similar to trilobites.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc. They should be found in pre-Cambrian layers of the fossil record.
                    Why should they be found in the Precambrian?

                    The Ediacaran period is the last part of the Precambrian.
                    Trilobites and echinoderms are mid-Cambrian animals.

                    If you want to find "Intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc", you should be looking in Cambrian layers, especially the Cambrian lagerstatten, not in pre-Cambrian layers. There you'll find creatures such as the halkieriids, Odontogriphus, Primicaris, Naraoia, and the various small shelly fossils.

                    No wonder you can't find the intermediates. Even if you are looking for intermediates, rather than just parroting creationist falsehoods as usual, you're looking in the wrong place. And if you don't even know where to look, why should anyone take any notice of what you say?
                    Last edited by Roy; 03-05-2019, 05:30 AM.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      On a vaguely related note, I was listening to Stephen Meyer, the DI's Cambrian explosion 'expert' recently, and I noticed that he kept pronouncing 'Cambrian' like 'Cambridge', not 'Cambria'.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                        Only if you assume the Ediacaran biota are the ancestors of Cambrian animals. That's currently the subject of considerable debate.

                        In any case, a quick google search pulled up plenty of images of potential trilobite ancestors, to handle just one example you cite:
                        http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Fossil_G...srelatives.htm
                        Source: Fossil Museum

                        The phylogenetically placement of the trilobites within Phylum Arthropoda remains problemmatic, as indeed are the relationships among all the early arthropods.

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        So I wouldn't conclude that trilobite ancestry has been resolved.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          For example, Spriggina, another Precambrian animal, has a head shield similar to trilobites.
                          Source: Darwin's Doubt

                          In a presentation to the Geological Society of America in 2003, geologist Mark McMenamin revived the idea that Spriggina might represent a trilobite ancestor. He argued that several features present in Spriggina fossils are comparable to those in trilobites such as “the presence of genal spines” and an effaced head or “cephalic region.” Nevertheless, many Ediacaran experts, including McMenamin, have also noted that Spriggina specimens show no evidence of eyes, limbs, mouths, or anuses, most of which are known from fossil trilobites. Other paleontologists remain skeptical about whether Spriggina does in fact exhibit genal spines, noting that good specimens seem to show relatively smooth edges with no protruding spines. In addition, analysis of the best specimens of Spriggina shows that it does not exhibit bilateral symmetry, undermining earlier attempts to classify it as a bilaterian animal, and by implication an arthropod.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Source: Darwin's Doubt

                            In a presentation to the Geological Society of America in 2003, geologist Mark McMenamin revived the idea that Spriggina might represent a trilobite ancestor. He argued that several features present in Spriggina fossils are comparable to those in trilobites such as “the presence of genal spines” and an effaced head or “cephalic region.” Nevertheless, many Ediacaran experts, including McMenamin, have also noted that Spriggina specimens show no evidence of eyes, limbs, mouths, or anuses, most of which are known from fossil trilobites. Other paleontologists remain skeptical about whether Spriggina does in fact exhibit genal spines, noting that good specimens seem to show relatively smooth edges with no protruding spines. In addition, analysis of the best specimens of Spriggina shows that it does not exhibit bilateral symmetry, undermining earlier attempts to classify it as a bilaterian animal, and by implication an arthropod.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            The veracity of the source you site is problematic at best. Meyer misrepresents the evidence so grossly that it is fair to ask if it is deliberate on his part. Just one example, if you turn to page 35 of his book you will see a chart that appears to be based on information at least 50 or 60 years out of date and in no way resembles what we know now or even what was widely known towards the end of the last century. It is not like more current information isn't available or even difficult to find. It is more likely that such information rips to shreds his central premise that there was a sudden, unexplainable appearance of large numbers of major animal groups in the Cambrian so he chooses to ignore it.
                            Last edited by rogue06; 03-06-2019, 01:25 PM.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Source: Fossil Museum

                              The phylogenetically placement of the trilobites within Phylum Arthropoda remains problemmatic, as indeed are the relationships among all the early arthropods.

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              So I wouldn't conclude that trilobite ancestry has been resolved.
                              It hasn't been resolved, but at the same time you can definitely say it's not true that trilobites appeared in the fossil record without antecedents.

                              Which i believe is counter to your original argument.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Source: Darwin's Doubt

                                In a presentation to the Geological Society of America in 2003, geologist Mark McMenamin revived the idea that Spriggina might represent a trilobite ancestor. He argued that several features present in Spriggina fossils are comparable to those in trilobites such as “the presence of genal spines” and an effaced head or “cephalic region.” Nevertheless, many Ediacaran experts, including McMenamin, have also noted that Spriggina specimens show no evidence of eyes, limbs, mouths, or anuses, most of which are known from fossil trilobites. Other paleontologists remain skeptical about whether Spriggina does in fact exhibit genal spines, noting that good specimens seem to show relatively smooth edges with no protruding spines. In addition, analysis of the best specimens of Spriggina shows that it does not exhibit bilateral symmetry, undermining earlier attempts to classify it as a bilaterian animal, and by implication an arthropod.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Apparently you are stuck citing Discovery Institute advocates of Intelligent Design that lack credibility, and taking other scientist out of context to justify your agenda.

                                For example: When you posted a brief sound bite from a layman's reference by Mark Ridley concerning stasis I asked you to put your citation in context of Mark Rdley's view of the relationship of stasis to evolution and you did not respond. Simply stating that stasis does occur in evolution is not an argument for anything.

                                This thread was supposed to be about bird evolution, but when you lost your way unable to present a constructive objection, and began a shotgun approach to 'arguing from vague ignorance' concerning many topics.

                                Your latest problem is incompletely citing a source: Fossil Museum?, a brief sound bite without a recognizable scientific reference nor credibility of context.

                                What is your reference: Fossil Museum?
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-06-2019, 07:12 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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