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Thread: New Bird/Dinosaur intermediate species found

  1. #21
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But change when it happens in evolution needs to be gradual, that is why punctuated equilibrium is a departure from classical Darwinism.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Not at all. As Darwin wrote "Species of different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate." IOW, evolutionary change can be very gradual or come in relatively quick (geologically speaking) bursts.

    From a post I made on the pre-crash Tweb concerning Punctuated Equilibrium and Gradualism:

    There are still papers being published on fossil data that shows that gradualistic evolutionary change is still recognized as completely legitimate: Gradual evolution in bacteria: evidence from Bacillus systematic and here is an earlier one: Parallel gradualistic evolution of Ordovician trilobites. And perhaps you might want to read this as well:

    Source: Large Punctuational Contribution of Speciation to Evolutionary Divergence at the Molecular Level


    A long-standing debate in evolutionary biology concerns whether species diverge gradually through time or by punctuational episodes at the time of speciation. We found that approximately 22% of substitutional changes at the DNA level can be attributed to punctuational evolution, and the remainder accumulates from background gradual divergence.


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    © Copyright Original Source



    In fact, Eldredge and Gould went out of their way to repeatedly point out that “Punk Eek” in no way supplanted gradualism but worked alongside of it as Donald Prothero notes in a review of the subject:

    Source: PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM AT TWENTY: A PALEONTOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE, pages 42-43


    As Gould and Eldredge (1977) pointed out in their five-year retrospective on the debate, it's easy to pick one specific example of either gradualism or punctuation, but the important issue is one of generality. Which pattern is dominant among the species in the fossil record, since both are known to occur? If you sample all the members of a given fauna, which pattern is most common? In the twenty years since the paper, more and more case studies have been generated, and by now a pattern seems to be emerging (Gould, 1992; Stanley, 1992).

    It is now clear that among microscopic protistans, gradualism does seem to prevail (Hayami and Ozawa, 1975; Scott, 1982; Arnold, 1983; Malmgren and Kennett, 1981; Malmgren et al., 1983; Wei and Kennett, 1988, on foraminiferans; Kellogg and Hays, 1975; Kellogg, 1983; Lazarus et al., 1985; Lazarus, 1986, on radiolarians, and Sorhannus et al., 1988; Fenner et al., 1989; Sorhannus,1990, on diatoms). As discussed by Gould and Eldredge (1977) and Lazarus (1983), this may be due to the fact that most of these organisms are either asexual clones, or show alternation of of sexual and asexual generations.


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    © Copyright Original Source



    So the observations actually reveal that both take place. It isn't an either-or situation but rather a complementary one. So as Prothero notes, Eldredge and Gould were aware of examples of both gradualism and PE, and like everyone else, wondered "which pattern is dominant." ... The only question that remains is which process is the dominant one.

    Source: Is evolution gradual or punctuated?: Large Punctuational Contribution of Speciation to Evolutionary Divergence at the Molecular Level


    A long-standing debate in evolutionary biology concerns whether species diverge gradually through time or by punctuational episodes at the time of speciation. We found that approximately 22% of substitutional changes at the DNA level can be attributed to punctuational evolution, and the remainder accumulates from background gradual divergence.


    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    I should also note that due to the incompleteness of the fossil record something that might appear to have changed rather suddenly may indeed have evolved gradually
    Last edited by rogue06; 03-03-2019 at 01:20 AM.

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  2. #22
    tWebber JohnHermes's Avatar
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    More like a "sudden" discovery then a sudden species popping up. The word play certainly can be confusing. Birds and fish.

  3. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHermes View Post
    More like a "sudden" discovery then a sudden species popping up. The word play certainly can be confusing. Birds and fish.
    More like resorting to 'blue smoke and mirrors' and 'arguing from ignorance' to selectively manipulate the physical evidence to justify an 'Intelligent Design' religious agenda.

    When the curtain is removed from the side show it is not confusing at all.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-03-2019 at 06:34 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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  4. #24
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    From a post I made on the pre-crash Tweb concerning Punctuated Equilibrium and Gradualism...
    Well, I'm not sure that examining DNA is the way to find out whether changes were sudden or gradual! It would be helpful to know what their methodology was.

    I should also note that due to the incompleteness of the fossil record something that might appear to have changed rather suddenly may indeed have evolved gradually
    Certainly, though in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #25
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Incomplete reference. You need the context and a more complete reference, and clarify how Riley considers stasis the theme of evolution. Which reference is this?
    The reference is in the link I posted, which is found here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #26
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Certainly, though in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't.
    Intermediates between what? Where should they be found? Be specific.

    Show us that this isn't another case of you claiming that no evidence exists despite knowing sod all about the subject.

    Otherwise it's not that there are no intermediates, it's only that you don't know of any intermediates.
    Last edited by Roy; 03-04-2019 at 04:20 AM.
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  7. #27
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I'm not sure that examining DNA is the way to find out whether changes were sudden or gradual! It would be helpful to know what their methodology was.
    ... but you can't be bothered to click on the link and find out.
    Last edited by Roy; 03-04-2019 at 04:56 AM.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  8. #28
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    The reference is in the link I posted, which is found here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    OK, but too brief to explain the role of stasis in the history of evolution. If you read a more complete reference to Riley's works you can put his views of stasis in the context of evolution you read a more comprehension of the role of stasis in evolution.

    Like the example given of the coelecanth the surviving species was one of many closely related species coelecanth that lives in a very deep water protected environment for which it survived the catastrophic events that killed off many species including the shallow sea and river species related to the coelecanth found in the fossils. This was a long term stable environment that the coelecanth was best suited and there was no pressure, competition, nor change in environment.

    Evolution is based on survival of the best suited and adapted to the environment. The set of 20 amino acids remained the foundation of RNA and DNA, because it was the best suited and adapted to the requirements of independent energy transfer and utilization in life, and remains the best suited from the first microorganisms in the oxygen-phosphorous- iron environment to the present. Like the coelecanth it was best adapted, and persisted without change. In the case of the set of 20 amino acids no other basic combination could compete and therefore did not survive. Nonetheless the basic set of amino acids has evolved to add more amino acids.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I'm not sure that examining DNA is the way to find out whether changes were sudden or gradual! It would be helpful to know what their methodology was.

    [/qoute]
    Certainly, though in the case of the Cambrian explosion, the fossil record should show some intermediates--only it doesn't.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Certainly, if you would do your homework you would find that they are finding some intermediates. The problem remains that you are resorting to an unethical 'argument from ignorance' claiming that the present lack of fossil finds determine that intermediates do not exist. Over time like with the evolution of birds they are finding more and more intermediates, and in the case of birds they are finding many diverse intermediates throughout the Cretaceous and later.

    As with the history of your threads and posts you consistent fail to do your own homework, research, nor actually read the references, because of an 'Intelligent Design' religious agenda. You also over your history repeat repeatedly tired old layman arguments without legitimate scientific references, not background.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-04-2019 at 08:26 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #30
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Intermediates between what? Where should they be found?
    Intermediates between Ediacaran animals and brachiopods, trilobites, mollusks, echinoderms, etc. They should be found in pre-Cambrian layers of the fossil record.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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