January 22nd 2011, 05:02 PM #46
Re: Was Mary sinless from conception?
No one except a person without sin could be in the presence of the Lord. Mary we know was held as New Ark of the Covenant (Rev 12) and Bore the Living God by the power of the Holy Spirit. She could not have been in the Presence of God himself unless she was sinless.
Now you may be of the misconception that Mary did not need a Savior. This is Not the teaching if the Doctrine of the Immaculate conception. Indeed without the Intervention of the Lord, Mary would've been conceived in sin like the rest of us. Thus she had to have a savior too. I don't believe however Mary knew she was without sin, and was obedient to the law like an upright young woman would've been at the time.
Allow me to address for a moment the misconception that Catholics worship Mary. If by worship you mean Honor as a spiritual Mother and plead for intercession then we are guilty as charged. So be it she is our spiritual mother and we give her honor as such. Again Rev 12. If by worship you mean take away the glory and due honor that is given alone and only to God our Heavenly Father and to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit for the Saving Grace, the Mercy the compassion, the Glory that belongs only to the KING of the UNIVERSE then you ar gravely mistaken. He is our Savior, our King, and such a praise and glory belongs only to Him above which there is no other.PATER aeterne, offero tibi Corpus et Sanguinem, animam et divinitatem dilectissimi Filii Tui, Domini nostri, Iesu Christi, in propitiatione pro peccatis nostris et totius mundi. PRO DOLOROSA Eius passione, miserere nobis et totius mundi.
January 22nd 2011, 09:01 PM #47
Re: Was Mary sinless from conception?
It is typical with many who seek to defend traditions of men, in the light of the fact that God makes notable conditions of mortals evident, and faced with the silence of the Holy Spirit as regards Mary being sinless, or a perpetual virgin, and a heavenly object of prayer, to resort to erroneous extrapolations. The fact is that men like Moses and John were in the presence of the Lord, and that in a glorious manifestation, while Mary's geographical closeness to the incarnated Christ versus that of others, including Joseph, would only have a matter of inches. And the prophets of old had the Spirit of God within them, and brought forth His word, though they were not sinless, as stated.
As for not needing a savior, do you deny that she was was preserved free from all stain of original sin in the first instance of her conception, or that she was cleansed later on? If the former, then that is a strech of the meaning of a savior who came to save sinners, not prevebt them from ever being such. And if cleansed later, then the issue is her preservation from sinning, even after Jesus went to glory.
As Rev, 12, is this infallible teaching or your private interpretation, and is it in conformity with the unanimous consent of the fathers?
As for praying to her, there is neither need or warrant, and is contrary to what is revealed about prayer, and who the direct object is to be, and immediate access the believe has, and the sufficiency of Christ. All you have is the attempt to extrapolate that out human earthly relations, as if earth to heaven relations btwn created beings has a full one to one correspondence to that of earth, which there is not, while such arguments from silence are used by Mormonism.
January 22nd 2011, 09:10 PM #48
Re: Was Mary sinless from conception?
Sadly, i cannot post html here and it does not retain all the formatting, which would have supplied viewable cross references.
The foundational issue regarding PTDS (prayer to departed saints) is that of Scriptural warrant and conflation.
The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS (praying to departed saints in heaven) one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ as regards immediate access or ability or compassion, etc. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so. The advocate of PTDS is thus left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and or a "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and such attempts are typical of cults when faced with the same.
To substantiate that PTDS is Scriptural, one needs to, from the Bible (and in order of importance)
1. Provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen prayed to, addressed, anyone else in heaven but the Lord.
2. Provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directed believers to pray to departed saints or angels. ("i.e. "After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...")..
3. Show where believers in Christ cannot have direct access to God in heaven, or where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.)
4. If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that.
5. Show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them.
6. Show where the departed are given the Divine attribute of omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. (Ps. 65:2; 139:4; Prov. 15:3)
7. Provide where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;)
8. Show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17 (“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,” who was a heavenly object of devotion and prayer.
9. If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that.
10. Show where another basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and is contrary to whatever is stated on the issue.
Example, descriptions, instructions. See Bible prayers here
Gen. 15:2; 17:18; 18:23; 18:23-32; 24:12-14; 32:9-12;
Ex. 25:22; 32:11-13; 33:12-19;
Num. 6:23-26; 10:35-36; 11:11-16; 12:13-14; 14:13-19; 27:15-18;
Dt. 3:23-25; 9:25; 9:26-29; 21:7-9; 26:5-10;
Josh. 7:7-9; Jdg 6:13; 6:15; 6:15-17; 6:36-37; 6:39; 13:8; 16:8;
2Sam. 7:18-29; 24:17;
1Ki. 3:5-61; 17:20-21; 18:25-26; 18:27-37; 19:4;
2 Ki. 6:17-18; 19:15-19;
1Chr.4:10; 29:9-19; 14:11;
2Chr. 6:40; 14:11; 20:6-12; 30:18-19;
Ezra 8:3; 9:5-15;
Neh. 1:4,5; 1:4-11; 4:4-5; 9:5-38;
Ps. 4:1; 5:3; 6:9; 17:1; 35:13; 39:12; 42:8; 54:2; 55:1; 61:1; 64:1; 65:2; 66:19,20; 69:13; 72:15; 80:4; 84:8; 86:1,6; 86:6; 88:2,13; 90:1; 102:1,17; 109:4,7; 141:2,5; 142:1; 143:1;
Prov. 15:8,29; 28:8;
Is. 37:4; 38:2,3,5; 56:7;
Jer. 7:16; 11:14; 26:19;
Ezek. 9:8; Dan. 9:3-19;
Hab. 1:12-17; 3:2-18;
Mat. 6:9-13; 11:25-27; 17:21; 21:22; 26:39; Lk. 1:9,13; 6:12; 18:10-13; 19:46; 23:30; 23:34; 23:46; Jn.11:41-42; 17:1-22; 17:1-26;
Acts 1:14,24-25; 3:1; 6:4; 9:6; 10:2,31; 12:5; 16:13,16;
Rm. 10:1; 12:12;
1Cor. 1:2; 7:5;
2Cor. 1:1; 9:14; 12:8;
Eph. 1:16-22; 3:13-21; 6:18;
Phil. 1:4,9-11,19; 4:6;
Col 1:9-13ff; 4:2;
1Thes. 3:10-13; 5:23,24;
2Thes. 1:10-12; 2:16-17;
Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; 13:20-21;
Rev. 6:16-16; 22:2022:2
Last edited by daniel1212; January 22nd 2011 at 09:21 PM. Reason: formatting
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