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Book Plunge: Light From The Christian East

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Which is what concerns me to hear.



    You have, but is it the official position? I don't see that so much when I check Orthodox websites and such. Also, when Protestants hear the Orthodox is the only true church, what about the rest of us? When the priest at the local Orthodox Church here says he doesn't know if the other churches are true churches besides the Orthodox ones, I am troubled by that. Does that mean you can look at, say, our statement of faith and say, "Hmmm. I don't know if this is teaching what is necessary for salvation or not."
    If we Orthodox are to believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church that Christ founded, then it only follows that breakaway groups are heterodox. By definition. Of course, the position of the Orthodox is we know where the Church is (i.e. the visible Orthodox Church), but we do not and cannot always know where it is not. It's similar to the official Catholic position on non-Catholics minus all the categorical distinctions they tend to make, and that's only fair. Catholics believe that they're participating in the proper Church. I don't care if they think of me a separated sister or whatever, and they don't care if my position is that they are the separated brethren. It used to bother me a lot when I was a Protestant that Orthodox thought of me as heterodox, but I got over it. It's fair given the position of the Orthodox Church is the actual, visible Church of Christ on earth. I needed to be secure enough in my beliefs as a Protestant to just accept that while still happily sharing in my commonalities with my Orthodox friends. Obviously I ended up Orthodox anyway, but I was pretty happy and fairly secure as a conservative Anglican until I came to Massachusetts, but that's a whole other story.

    "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
    "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
    Katniss Everdeen


    Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      I certainly don't doubt that you do, but you used this 'spirit of animosity' as a point against the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. That simply doesn't stand when the exact same spirit is equally present amongs baptists as well as with many evangelicals.
      Bring them here and I'll talk with them. The message is really simple. What do you say about who Jesus is and how do you respond to Him? If Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants all say the same answer, why the problem?

      They, and we consider him a Bishop. And they, at least the non-polemical of them, would agree that the Petrine office has special significance. But there's some further issues on just how much authority that carries. I would definitely agree that lately, especially in the last century, the papal office has swollen out of proportion. The pope was meant to be the figure head of the bishops, but its become more of an ecclesiastical autocraty lately.

      If the Church Fathers learned that we were hearing more about what the Pope was doing and saying that, than of our own bishop, they'd cry out in outrage.

      Unfortunately I'm not an expert on that part. The Church Fathers, the Petrine office, the history of the schism between East and West, etc... And if you dissent over these reasons, I can understand.
      I was quite thinking this present Pope was doing a good job, but then the sexual abuse scandal broke out again and now I'm quite disappointed in him. I really just see no basis for the idea in Scripture. If you say Peter was the first one, well he was married and he also got publicly rebuked by Paul.

      Its definitely falsifiable. If we discover good archeological evidence that the notion of bishops and popes are entirely made up, then we'd of course be in a pickle. The thing is that these concepts go back as long as you'd care to go. They're even in the scriptures, resulting in some passages that remain awkward for non-Catholics to interpret to this day.
      I really question that part. For the Fathers, I would leave that to many who are better read in the Patristics than I am, but when I go to the New Testament, I really don't see a Pope.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by thewriteranon View Post
        If we Orthodox are to believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church that Christ founded, then it only follows that breakaway groups are heterodox. By definition. Of course, the position of the Orthodox is we know where the Church is (i.e. the visible Orthodox Church), but we do not and cannot always know where it is not. It's similar to the official Catholic position on non-Catholics minus all the categorical distinctions they tend to make, and that's only fair. Catholics believe that they're participating in the proper Church. I don't care if they think of me a separated sister or whatever, and they don't care if my position is that they are the separated brethren. It used to bother me a lot when I was a Protestant that Orthodox thought of me as heterodox, but I got over it. It's fair given the position of the Orthodox Church is the actual, visible Church of Christ on earth. I needed to be secure enough in my beliefs as a Protestant to just accept that while still happily sharing in my commonalities with my Orthodox friends. Obviously I ended up Orthodox anyway, but I was pretty happy and fairly secure as a conservative Anglican until I came to Massachusetts, but that's a whole other story.
        I have a problem with it because I think it works against unity. How can we have unity among us if we want to say that only X is the true church and all others are thus not true churches? Can we not look at our own creeds and confessions and say "You know, I disagree with you on this point here, but overall, you've got the Christian Gospel here."? With Allie looking into this, I take it a lot more seriously. Will she have to say her husband is a heretic in some way? What about her own family and such? These are problematic issues. This is especially so since I don't find the case at all compelling. I really question that there's one true church that has things right. When we look at the NT, the church is not as pure as we would like it to be. When we look at the Fathers, it's not as corrupted as many think it is.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          I have a problem with it because I think it works against unity. How can we have unity among us if we want to say that only X is the true church and all others are thus not true churches? Can we not look at our own creeds and confessions and say "You know, I disagree with you on this point here, but overall, you've got the Christian Gospel here."? With Allie looking into this, I take it a lot more seriously. Will she have to say her husband is a heretic in some way? What about her own family and such? These are problematic issues. This is especially so since I don't find the case at all compelling. I really question that there's one true church that has things right. When we look at the NT, the church is not as pure as we would like it to be. When we look at the Fathers, it's not as corrupted as many think it is.
          Emphasis mine.

          The Orthodox position is that unity is found in Orthodoxy, not by saying, "oh well, you disagree with us on a lot of stuff that we consider pretty basic but that's nbd." Sorry, but that's just the way that works. That sort of ecumenism is just not accepted in Orthodoxy because, well, we think we're right. That's not to say the bishops and people have always been pure or done the right thing, because that's pretty obviously not true. But we believe God would not allow the Church as a whole to fall into error, especially not to the degree that Protestants at the end of the day believe is in error.

          As far as thinking hubs or family is heretical, that's not for me to think or decide. I don't like using the term heretic for Protestant believers, though plenty of hyperdox use it liberally. This is where I do actually kinda like Catholics' penchant for categorizing, as they explicitly distinguish between people who make a formal, vocal break from their church and people who were raised in a Protestant household and have never known anything else. My family is of Protestant heritage, going back and back and back. I can safely say that my great-great grandparents were almost certainly Protestants, which makes me think, given that my heritage comes out of the British Isles primarily, you'd probably have to go back to the Reformation and/or my most recent Irish ancestor to find anything but a Protestant. No, I don't sit around condemning my entire lineage as heretical. For the most part, my family has had no contact with the Orthodox, and so, call me optimistic, I think some or many of them have been okay, doing the best with what they had. Are some of the things they held to heretical? Well yeah, but the word "heretic" in English is so loaded with other subtext it doesn't quite capture the complexity of the situation. That's why I normally use the word heterodox. People are just blind to the nuances otherwise, and given the mental image of people being burned at the stake for heresy, I get it.

          I don't have the authority to look at the confession of Pastor Jim Bob's Baptist Church and say, "yeah, you're basically right!" Especially when there are actually significant differences. Sacramentalism, for example, tends to be kind of a big deal and I am uncomfortable with saying those who take a hyper-Zwinglian approach aren't lacking something. That's actually one of the big issues that drove me away from Baptist and Non-denominational churches altogether.

          "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
          "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
          Katniss Everdeen


          Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            . . . I really question that there's one true church that has things right. . .
            Amen. The true Church is, I believe, not a visible organization. It is made up of all true believers, and those are known only by God. If you or I have some theological error in our beliefs that puts us in a universal family, if our faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ. If that is you I certainly accept you fully as a brother/sister in the Lord.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #51
              I'm just going to clarify here that my amen to thewriteranon's two posts here is not an agreement with the Orthodox Church that they alone are the one true visible Church founded by Christ and his apostles, but rather an appreciation for their forthrightness and willingness to take their beliefs on the matter to their logical conclusion.

              I honestly don't see what the problem is. Orthodox Christians believe Christians outside of Orthodoxy are heterodox? So what? Either their beliefs on this are true, or they are not, but complaining that it works against unity is going to help how exactly?

              The answer of course is that it doesn't help at all. If you want to achieve unity you either study Orthodox beliefs and see if they hold up to scrutiny, or not, and then either join the Orthodox Church (if their doctrines survive the test) or try and get the Orthodox Church to realize other Christians are not heterodox and change their beliefs accordingly.

              Any other attempt at unity is going to be unity built not on truth, but on misguided intentions, and therefore doomed to fail.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                I'm just going to clarify here that my amen to thewriteranon's two posts here is not an agreement with the Orthodox Church that they alone are the one true visible Church founded by Christ and his apostles, but rather an appreciation for their forthrightness and willingness to take their beliefs on the matter to their logical conclusion.

                I honestly don't see what the problem is. Orthodox Christians believe Christians outside of Orthodoxy are heterodox? So what? Either their beliefs on this are true, or they are not, but complaining that it works against unity is going to help how exactly?

                The answer of course is that it doesn't help at all. If you want to achieve unity you either study Orthodox beliefs and see if they hold up to scrutiny, or not, and then either join the Orthodox Church (if their doctrines survive the test) or try and get the Orthodox Church to realize other Christians are not heterodox and change their beliefs accordingly.

                Any other attempt at unity is going to be unity built not on truth, but on misguided intentions, and therefore doomed to fail.
                Thanks, my friend. That has pretty much been my opinion on the matter.

                "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                Katniss Everdeen


                Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                Comment


                • #53
                  When it comes to the Lord's Supper, I have no firm opinion. I first off don't think any church today celebrates it as it was done in Bible times. In Corinthians, the meeting is at someone's house and you have it lasting a long time as some arrive late to the event. Some people are getting drunk. Some are going hungry. Good luck having that happen at servieces today where you're given a small piece of bread that's gone in two bites and a little sip of juice. It's also the problem of just one person officiating and giving everyone a little bit. Again, this doesn't seem to fit the picture I see in Scripture. Now there could be churches out there doing this like it was then, but I haven't found them yet.

                  At a recent church service we were at Allie was hesitant to come forward. I told her that most people in the church today probably do not have a doctrine of the Lord's Supper. They haven't studied the Scriptures and worked out a doctrine of what is meant by "This is my body." It's an important question, but all they care about really is that Jesus said to do it. They come forward. They do it. They do it in honor of Jesus whatever position they hold.

                  I also don't see anything that indicates that it's a sacrament. I know a lot of people point to John 6, but I don't think that's talking about the Lord's Supper. It's more comparing Jesus to the manna in the wilderness and saying, "The bread is what sustained the Israelites then. You must find your entire sustenance in me. I must be your life."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I wasn't arguing about the sacraments, just making a point that these things are actually different and can be really important.

                    "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                    "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                    Katniss Everdeen


                    Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by thewriteranon View Post
                      Obviously I ended up Orthodox anyway, but I was pretty happy and fairly secure as a conservative Anglican until I came to Massachusetts, but that's a whole other story.
                      You too, huh? Only I was Southern Baptist, not Anglican.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        You too, huh? Only I was Southern Baptist, not Anglican.
                        There was always a little niggling in the back of my head, because at that point I'd read some about Orthodoxy, but it was fairly easy to ignore in my conservative, very high church, filioque-excluding Anglican church in Texas. When I came to Massachusetts and couldn't replicate that same experience I had to face it.

                        "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                        "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                        Katniss Everdeen


                        Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          When it comes to the Lord's Supper, I have no firm opinion. I first off don't think any church today celebrates it as it was done in Bible times. In Corinthians, the meeting is at someone's house and you have it lasting a long time as some arrive late to the event. Some people are getting drunk. Some are going hungry. Good luck having that happen at servieces today where you're given a small piece of bread that's gone in two bites and a little sip of juice. It's also the problem of just one person officiating and giving everyone a little bit. Again, this doesn't seem to fit the picture I see in Scripture. Now there could be churches out there doing this like it was then, but I haven't found them yet.
                          When I was studying Orthodoxy (without any intention of converting), I acknowledged that no church today was likely to be exactly like the original church - but I studied early Christianity with the goal of discerning which church today was most faithful to that original church. The eucharist is something of a case in point. It was sacramental in character from the beginning; though you'll find references here and there to the eucharist as a symbol, the meaning of "symbol" in the original carries much more weight than it does today in English. While the Eucharist was initiated as a part of a meal, it was obviously freighted with much more significance than the rest of the meal. What the early church seems to have done fairly quickly is to have either moved the Eucharist itself to the beginning of the meal to highlight its significance (thus breaking their fast with it) and/or done away with the meal entirely as it was not integral to the celebration and removed the propensity for some to over-indulge. The East eventually went to distribution of both kinds from the chalice with a spoon in order to further regulate how much each person got (again, to prevent some from taking too much).
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            When I was studying Orthodoxy (without any intention of converting), I acknowledged that no church today was likely to be exactly like the original church - but I studied early Christianity with the goal of discerning which church today was most faithful to that original church. The eucharist is something of a case in point. It was sacramental in character from the beginning; though you'll find references here and there to the eucharist as a symbol, the meaning of "symbol" in the original carries much more weight than it does today in English. While the Eucharist was initiated as a part of a meal, it was obviously freighted with much more significance than the rest of the meal. What the early church seems to have done fairly quickly is to have either moved the Eucharist itself to the beginning of the meal to highlight its significance (thus breaking their fast with it) and/or done away with the meal entirely as it was not integral to the celebration and removed the propensity for some to over-indulge. The East eventually went to distribution of both kinds from the chalice with a spoon in order to further regulate how much each person got (again, to prevent some from taking too much).
                            The Eucharist is a definite hill to die on for me. The issue filters out all nearly all protestant denominations, except for those high church Lutherans who still maintain Christ's presence in the Eucharist and practice confession. Which my big brother does (he's a Lutheran priest). I'm not a Lutheran mostly only for reasons relating to apostolic succession.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              The Eucharist is a definite hill to die on for me. The issue filters out all nearly all protestant denominations, except for those high church Lutherans who still maintain Christ's presence in the Eucharist and practice confession. Which my big brother does (he's a Lutheran priest). I'm not a Lutheran mostly only for reasons relating to apostolic succession.
                              Most conservative high-church Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics, largely) also believe in Real Presence and sometimes practice confession. My Anglican priest in Texas encouraged confession regularly and when asked about the Eucharist my priests all said "it's a mystery."

                              "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                              "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                              Katniss Everdeen


                              Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                              Comment

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