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General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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Book Plunge: Light From The Christian East
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostLuther would probably not have been as caustic in his writings if the Catholic Church hadn't forced him out."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI think you might have your threads mixed up.
Yep.
But I think the point can still be established that Luther's temperament was an issue."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostLuther would probably not have been as caustic in his writings if the Catholic Church hadn't forced him out.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou understand the implications of that, yes? Namely, that the entire church went off the rails, and the Reformers came along about 1,000 years later and fixed it. That's one heaping load of chutzpah, Nick.
...The medieval church made the Reformation possible in important ways. We learned vocabulary, categories, and biblical interpretations from the medieval theologians. The Reformation did not discard everything the medieval church did or said. We saw an organic relation between the medieval church and the Reformation. There is a great difference between Reformation and revolution...Luther was not the first to challenge the medieval church. It takes about 78 hours to tell that story, so I cannot do it here, but the short story is that there were medieval critics from whom Luther et al learned. None of them quite put together the whole package, as it were, but they did lay the foundation by, e.g., turning back to Augustine’s basic insights about sin and grace. Wycliffe’s turn back to the unique authority of Scripture was very important. The Renaissance critique of the immorality of the medieval church and its turn back to the sources, including Scripture, in the original languages, to be interpreted in light of their original context and intent, was very important. The Reformation was a gathering together of threads that existed long before 1517. Indeed, Luther himself did not become a full-fledged Protestant overnight in a single, shattering “tower episode” (Turmerlebnis). He became a Protestant gradually, over a period of about 8 years, through engaging the Scriptures afresh, through engaging the Christian tradition afresh, and through challenging long-held assumptions about the way things must be.
We should think of the Christians in the medieval (and Byzantine) church the way we think of Israel and Judah. God’s people have always been a mixed assembly. The story of the mission of the church is complicated story. In many places the faith was imposed from above rather than, as it were, taught from below. Who knows what people “on the ground,” as they say, understood about the faith into which they had just been baptized in the 9th century? Who knows what the Israelite farthest from Sinai understood about the faith? We trust that God has always had his elect in the midst of the visible church, whether under types and shadows or under what Luther called the “Babylonian Captivity” of the medieval church. We trust that the elect are always brought to true faith by the sovereign work of the Spirit through the divinely ordained means (namely, the preaching of the gospel). Even where the church’s theology, piety, and practice was profoundly corrupted there were still faithful ministers in local parishes calling their people to Christ and offering the righteousness of Christ, received through faith alone. We should doubt the story that the true church was exiled to Alps and preserved (like a valuable document wrapped in oilskin) until the Reformation. History is more complicated than that.
Christ promised he would always be with his church, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s church. Those are gospel promises and it was these promises that Reformers sought to recover and for which they gave their lives. The history is that he has always had his church in the midst of what has always been a mixed, visible assembly.
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..God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his..” (2Tim. 2:19)Last edited by Scrawly; 10-15-2018, 10:04 PM.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostEvery baptist apologist I've ever encountered, and most of the evangelical apologists would say the exact same thing about Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. We can only be saved if we deny some of our doctrines, or can be judged 'innocently ignorant'. And that's at best. There's a couple of baptists even on this forum who haven't minced words with where One Bad Pig and me are going.
So what does it matter to you that there are some members of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox persuasion who take a stricter interpretation towards what counts as being among the saved? I hear the same thing on my end.
This reason is emotional Nick. I can sympathise, but its mostly people being people.
We have some mighty strong debates between ourselves at times.
Yet despite that, we all work together on the same team.
I have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.
As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.
How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostCan you support that from scripture?
You choose to reject foundational Orthodox praxis and belief, so yes, that makes you a 'heretic' (literally, one who chooses [other]).
*googles* There's two! You wouldn't have to come nearly this far - just google "korean church tennessee" and you'll get bunches of hits. Even "ukrainian baptist church tennessee" gives me hits at the top for two in Knoxville and one in Chattanooga.
Second, I'm interested in seeing not just an Eastern church, but one in an Eastern culture entirely.
For the next part, did the churches go off some? Yes. I think they did. Scrawly is right that there were several medieval voices that raised cries of concern. What changed it all? Two words. Printing Press.
As for the problems with the church, Erasmus was one wanting to deal with the abuses of the system. Luther thought the system was a problem in itself. He had hoped to debate the point when he was called to testify, but he was never given the chance.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI am part of a Facebook group that does evangelism together and we have a number of Catholics and Protestants and at least one Orthodox.
We have some mighty strong debates between ourselves at times.
Yet despite that, we all work together on the same team.
I have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.
As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.
How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?Last edited by thewriteranon; 10-16-2018, 09:56 AM.
"Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
"I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
Katniss Everdeen
Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostTrue, but it's not as if Luther behaved very diplomatically on his end either.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI think it comes from the word heresy. It refers to a separate party.
But does that mean I have rejected Christianity?
First, we're in Atlanta.
Second, I'm interested in seeing not just an Eastern church, but one in an Eastern culture entirely.
For the next part, did the churches go off some? Yes. I think they did. Scrawly is right that there were several medieval voices that raised cries of concern.
What changed it all? Two words. Printing Press.
As for the problems with the church, Erasmus was one wanting to deal with the abuses of the system. Luther thought the system was a problem in itself. He had hoped to debate the point when he was called to testify, but he was never given the chance.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostAs for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.
How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostTrue I suppose, but it wasn't like the Catholic Church didn't give him good reason to behave the way he did and write the things he did against them.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou are a separate party, at least in some sense.
I'm honestly surprised that you think you need to ask that, Nick. I've made my position plain.
Moving the goalposts, Nick?
In Scrawly's quote, I see a single off-hand reference to Byzantine churches. There's good reason for that; the East didn't have the isolated cries for reform the West did, for it didn't need them. I also see an imaginative reference to "sola fide" with nary a reference to back it up.
Yes, the printing press helped Luther spread his division quite well. German politics were also not unimportant.
Yes, the Catholic Church did not handle Luther well at all.
As for the papacy, I accept what Anon said and I know Ken Stewart in his book said much the same about the Papacy in Rome. I could read that, but honestly, I keep saying I need to get onto other books and I'm going to have do that. Baker just sent me a bunch of them and I have to keep up for my show.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.
As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.
If the Church Fathers learned that we were hearing more about what the Pope was doing and saying that, than of our own bishop, they'd cry out in outrage.
Unfortunately I'm not an expert on that part. The Church Fathers, the Petrine office, the history of the schism between East and West, etc... And if you dissent over these reasons, I can understand.
How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?
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