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Book Plunge: Light From The Christian East

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The Catholic Church was in serious need of reformation; what it got instead was fragmentation. There wasn't much room for dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics; rather than concede on the papacy and filioque, the Catholic Church attempted to keep itself together by main force. There was dialogue between the Lutherans and Orthodox, but after a few rounds the Orthodox politely asked the Lutherans to desist; the gap was unbridgeable. If Luther had been a little humbler....
    Luther would probably not have been as caustic in his writings if the Catholic Church hadn't forced him out.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Luther would probably not have been as caustic in his writings if the Catholic Church hadn't forced him out.
      His anger at the Jews was that they would not convert, so the RCC's actions are not relevant here.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        His anger at the Jews was that they would not convert, so the RCC's actions are not relevant here.
        I think you might have your threads mixed up.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          I think you might have your threads mixed up.
          Oops.

          Yep.

          But I think the point can still be established that Luther's temperament was an issue.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Luther would probably not have been as caustic in his writings if the Catholic Church hadn't forced him out.
            True, but it's not as if Luther behaved very diplomatically on his end either.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              You understand the implications of that, yes? Namely, that the entire church went off the rails, and the Reformers came along about 1,000 years later and fixed it. That's one heaping load of chutzpah, Nick.
              I'm hoping that is a caricature of Nick's thinking on the matter. Nevertheless, a few considerations courtesy of R. Scott Clark ought to provide some perspective:

              ...The medieval church made the Reformation possible in important ways. We learned vocabulary, categories, and biblical interpretations from the medieval theologians. The Reformation did not discard everything the medieval church did or said. We saw an organic relation between the medieval church and the Reformation. There is a great difference between Reformation and revolution...Luther was not the first to challenge the medieval church. It takes about 78 hours to tell that story, so I cannot do it here, but the short story is that there were medieval critics from whom Luther et al learned. None of them quite put together the whole package, as it were, but they did lay the foundation by, e.g., turning back to Augustine’s basic insights about sin and grace. Wycliffe’s turn back to the unique authority of Scripture was very important. The Renaissance critique of the immorality of the medieval church and its turn back to the sources, including Scripture, in the original languages, to be interpreted in light of their original context and intent, was very important. The Reformation was a gathering together of threads that existed long before 1517. Indeed, Luther himself did not become a full-fledged Protestant overnight in a single, shattering “tower episode” (Turmerlebnis). He became a Protestant gradually, over a period of about 8 years, through engaging the Scriptures afresh, through engaging the Christian tradition afresh, and through challenging long-held assumptions about the way things must be.

              We should think of the Christians in the medieval (and Byzantine) church the way we think of Israel and Judah. God’s people have always been a mixed assembly. The story of the mission of the church is complicated story. In many places the faith was imposed from above rather than, as it were, taught from below. Who knows what people “on the ground,” as they say, understood about the faith into which they had just been baptized in the 9th century? Who knows what the Israelite farthest from Sinai understood about the faith? We trust that God has always had his elect in the midst of the visible church, whether under types and shadows or under what Luther called the “Babylonian Captivity” of the medieval church. We trust that the elect are always brought to true faith by the sovereign work of the Spirit through the divinely ordained means (namely, the preaching of the gospel). Even where the church’s theology, piety, and practice was profoundly corrupted there were still faithful ministers in local parishes calling their people to Christ and offering the righteousness of Christ, received through faith alone. We should doubt the story that the true church was exiled to Alps and preserved (like a valuable document wrapped in oilskin) until the Reformation. History is more complicated than that.

              Christ promised he would always be with his church, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Christ’s church. Those are gospel promises and it was these promises that Reformers sought to recover and for which they gave their lives. The history is that he has always had his church in the midst of what has always been a mixed, visible assembly.

              Source

              ..God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his..” (2Tim. 2:19)
              Last edited by Scrawly; 10-15-2018, 10:04 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                Every baptist apologist I've ever encountered, and most of the evangelical apologists would say the exact same thing about Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. We can only be saved if we deny some of our doctrines, or can be judged 'innocently ignorant'. And that's at best. There's a couple of baptists even on this forum who haven't minced words with where One Bad Pig and me are going.

                So what does it matter to you that there are some members of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox persuasion who take a stricter interpretation towards what counts as being among the saved? I hear the same thing on my end.

                This reason is emotional Nick. I can sympathise, but its mostly people being people.
                I am part of a Facebook group that does evangelism together and we have a number of Catholics and Protestants and at least one Orthodox.

                We have some mighty strong debates between ourselves at times.

                Yet despite that, we all work together on the same team.

                I have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.

                As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.

                How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Can you support that from scripture?
                  I think it comes from the word heresy. It refers to a separate party.

                  You choose to reject foundational Orthodox praxis and belief, so yes, that makes you a 'heretic' (literally, one who chooses [other]).
                  But does that mean I have rejected Christianity?

                  *googles* There's two! You wouldn't have to come nearly this far - just google "korean church tennessee" and you'll get bunches of hits. Even "ukrainian baptist church tennessee" gives me hits at the top for two in Knoxville and one in Chattanooga.
                  First, we're in Atlanta.

                  Second, I'm interested in seeing not just an Eastern church, but one in an Eastern culture entirely.

                  For the next part, did the churches go off some? Yes. I think they did. Scrawly is right that there were several medieval voices that raised cries of concern. What changed it all? Two words. Printing Press.

                  As for the problems with the church, Erasmus was one wanting to deal with the abuses of the system. Luther thought the system was a problem in itself. He had hoped to debate the point when he was called to testify, but he was never given the chance.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    I am part of a Facebook group that does evangelism together and we have a number of Catholics and Protestants and at least one Orthodox.

                    We have some mighty strong debates between ourselves at times.

                    Yet despite that, we all work together on the same team.

                    I have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.

                    As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.

                    How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?
                    Your language is imprecise. There is nothing wrong with a "papacy" (and, in fact, the Patriarch of Alexandria is also known as the Pope of Alexandria - Patriarch = Pope). We also have no problem seeing the see of Rome as going back to Peter. The issue is papal supremacy.
                    Last edited by thewriteranon; 10-16-2018, 09:56 AM.

                    "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                    "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                    Katniss Everdeen


                    Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      True, but it's not as if Luther behaved very diplomatically on his end either.
                      True I suppose, but it wasn't like the Catholic Church didn't give him good reason to behave the way he did and write the things he did against them. Then again I'm a Protestant (Lutheran to be more precise) so I'm sure my bias is clouding my judgement on this issue.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        I think it comes from the word heresy. It refers to a separate party.
                        You are a separate party, at least in some sense.
                        But does that mean I have rejected Christianity?
                        I'm honestly surprised that you think you need to ask that, Nick. I've made my position plain.
                        First, we're in Atlanta.
                        Sorry, forgot you'd moved. Nonetheless, my point stands.
                        Second, I'm interested in seeing not just an Eastern church, but one in an Eastern culture entirely.
                        Moving the goalposts, Nick?
                        For the next part, did the churches go off some? Yes. I think they did. Scrawly is right that there were several medieval voices that raised cries of concern.
                        In Scrawly's quote, I see a single off-hand reference to Byzantine churches. There's good reason for that; the East didn't have the isolated cries for reform the West did, for it didn't need them. I also see an imaginative reference to "sola fide" with nary a reference to back it up.
                        What changed it all? Two words. Printing Press.
                        Yes, the printing press helped Luther spread his division quite well. German politics were also not unimportant.
                        As for the problems with the church, Erasmus was one wanting to deal with the abuses of the system. Luther thought the system was a problem in itself. He had hoped to debate the point when he was called to testify, but he was never given the chance.
                        Yes, the Catholic Church did not handle Luther well at all.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.

                          How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?
                          More to the point, check to see if papal supremacy goes back to the apostles. Peter Lampe's From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries is instructive; for the first couple centuries, it's not easy to find evidence that the bishop of Rome's authority extended to the boundaries of Rome itself, though before Constantine's time it had enough cash on hand to assist the poor in outlying areas.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            True I suppose, but it wasn't like the Catholic Church didn't give him good reason to behave the way he did and write the things he did against them.
                            You'll find no disagreement from me on that account.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              You are a separate party, at least in some sense.
                              Which is what concerns me to hear.

                              I'm honestly surprised that you think you need to ask that, Nick. I've made my position plain.
                              You have, but is it the official position? I don't see that so much when I check Orthodox websites and such. Also, when Protestants hear the Orthodox is the only true church, what about the rest of us? When the priest at the local Orthodox Church here says he doesn't know if the other churches are true churches besides the Orthodox ones, I am troubled by that. Does that mean you can look at, say, our statement of faith and say, "Hmmm. I don't know if this is teaching what is necessary for salvation or not."



                              Moving the goalposts, Nick?
                              Not at all. I had emailed JPH about a week or two talking about this asking if the problems we often see over here could maybe be our culture as well. If we went over to the churches in the East, would we see the same things? I really would like to look into that sometime.

                              In Scrawly's quote, I see a single off-hand reference to Byzantine churches. There's good reason for that; the East didn't have the isolated cries for reform the West did, for it didn't need them. I also see an imaginative reference to "sola fide" with nary a reference to back it up.
                              Sure, but that was the culture Luther was in and I do think he saw a lot of things added on that didn't need to be added on. No doubt, indulgences were a big problem and even most Catholics would have agreed the church needed some reform. When you have priests that have concubines and bishops encouraging it, something is wrong.

                              Yes, the printing press helped Luther spread his division quite well. German politics were also not unimportant.
                              I do remember in my interview with Glenn Sunshine he said that Luther didn't want his students to spread what he put on the Wittenberg Door, but they did anyway. He wasn't sure if Luther didn't want them shared that much or not. With what Chrawnus said, I think it could have been a lot like the case with Galileo. Both sides had some ego involved which made it worse.

                              Yes, the Catholic Church did not handle Luther well at all.
                              Indeed. Things could have gone so much better if they hadn't given him an option beyond just repent, especially with the ghost of Hus in the background.

                              As for the papacy, I accept what Anon said and I know Ken Stewart in his book said much the same about the Papacy in Rome. I could read that, but honestly, I keep saying I need to get onto other books and I'm going to have do that. Baker just sent me a bunch of them and I have to keep up for my show.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                                I have just as much impatience for people who say Orthodox and Catholics aren't Christians as I do for Orthodox and Catholics who say the same about Protestants.
                                I certainly don't doubt that you do, but you used this 'spirit of animosity' as a point against the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. That simply doesn't stand when the exact same spirit is equally present amongs baptists as well as with many evangelicals.

                                As for the traditions point, consider one example. The papacy. The East considers that a mistake on the part of the West. The West is convinced that goes back to Peter. Orthodox give Peter a high place, but they don't have a papacy.
                                They, and we consider him a Bishop. And they, at least the non-polemical of them, would agree that the Petrine office has special significance. But there's some further issues on just how much authority that carries. I would definitely agree that lately, especially in the last century, the papal office has swollen out of proportion. The pope was meant to be the figure head of the bishops, but its become more of an ecclesiastical autocraty lately.

                                If the Church Fathers learned that we were hearing more about what the Pope was doing and saying that, than of our own bishop, they'd cry out in outrage.

                                Unfortunately I'm not an expert on that part. The Church Fathers, the Petrine office, the history of the schism between East and West, etc... And if you dissent over these reasons, I can understand.

                                How could I check to see if the Papacy goes back to the apostles?
                                Its definitely falsifiable. If we discover good archeological evidence that the notion of bishops and popes are entirely made up, then we'd of course be in a pickle. The thing is that these concepts go back as long as you'd care to go. They're even in the scriptures, resulting in some passages that remain awkward for non-Catholics to interpret to this day.

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