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Thread: The Roman Church response to the atrocious scandals; "The Devil made me do it!"

  1. #21
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Then it wouldn't be the Billy Graham rule (since that's specifically about women you're not married to) but a blanket prohibition on being alone with anybody, which we know Graham didn't rule out, with famous accounts of him personally counseling various famous people.
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  2. #22
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I don't see how the Billy Graham rule would have stopped priests from raping boys.

    Maybe more relevant is what the Boy Scouts do. They have a rule where no boy can be alone with any adult leader (unless it's his father). I don't know how that would work within the context of private confession, though.
    I was a By Scout leader for a number of years and the rule was enforced rigidly. When I was at a large summer camp and my assistant did not show I was assigned an assistant for the duration of the summer camp.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
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  4. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I wonder if they'd be having these problems if they had employed "the Billy Graham rule" that liberals love to mock.
    I believe this is somewhat off topic, but the issue of atrocious scandals I am referring to is endemic to the nature of the Roman hierarchy celibate priesthood with unquestioned divine authority.

    The Billy Graham rule is nice, but I do not consider sufficient to apply to this problem. I do not believe the evangelical ministry claimed the 'divine authority' as in the hierarchy of the Roman Church Priesthood.

    Also by the evidence I believe it was an 'honor system' the always did not work among evangelical preachers.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-08-2018 at 07:16 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #24
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    I probably should have clarified that allowing the clergy to marry might have prevented a lot of these assaults. Perhaps the propensity to assault boys might not have been so prevalent in married clergy.
    I agree to the extent that having a celibate clergy reduces the possibility of acceptable sexual outlets, which then find satisfaction in utterly unacceptable ways such as with children. But the Protestant congregations have also had their sexual problems with the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard. "several prominent evangelical institutions have been rocked in recent weeks by their own sexual misconduct allegations against pastors and church leaders who exploited the trust they had gained from faithful churchgoers."

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-us...-in-metoo-era/

    Of course, in a works-based system that says that all you need to do is confess your sin to another priest and do so much penance lets any sort of sinful behaviour run rampant,
    Doctrinal correction: One is confessing to God in the presence of a priest, not to the priest himself.
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  6. #25
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    All they really needed to do was to not insist on "celibacy" for their clergy. Not that it would have prevented all issues, but maybe would have prevented a great deal of them.
    Celibacy is not, and never has been, the issue. To say it is impossible or unnatural, is insulting to those who are celibate, and are not debauchees. Was Christ a debauchee ? For He had no wife. To treat marriage as though it were absolutely necessary, is to ignore the witness of the NT in particular, & to fall for the myth that one cannot survive without engaging in carnal relations.

    The problem is not celibacy, but lack of the virtues of continence & chastity.

    Celibacy is the state of having never had a wife, and is entirely compatible with fornication, adultery, sexual experimentation, & so on.

    What is insisted on in the Roman Rite is not celibacy, or even virginity - widowers, who have by definition ceased to be celibates, can be ordained to the priesthood - but a practice of the virtue of chastity in the form of a continence that forgoes sexual activity for the sake of the Kingdom of God. It is the sacrifice of the exercise of a natural appetite, and is therefore a recognition that what is sacrificed is a good; to sacrifice something bad would be no sacrifice at all.
    Continence, it should be emphasised, is practiced by spouses as truly as by those who are chaste but not married.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-09-2018 at 12:47 AM.

  7. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I don't see how the Billy Graham rule would have stopped priests from raping boys.

    Maybe more relevant is what the Boy Scouts do. They have a rule where no boy can be alone with any adult leader (unless it's his father). I don't know how that would work within the context of private confession, though.
    Catholics use a confessional, with a screen separating the one confessing from the priest. Those aren't used in Orthodoxy, but in my parish there is always someone else present chanting psalms, close enough to see but not overhear.
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  8. #27
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Celibacy is not, and never has been, the issue. To say it is impossible or unnatural, is insulting to those who are celibate, and are not debauchees. Was Christ a debauchee ? For He had no wife. To treat marriage as though it were absolutely necessary, is to ignore the witness of the NT in particular, & to fall for the myth that one cannot survive without engaging in carnal relations.

    The problem is not celibacy, but lack of the virtues of continence & chastity.

    Celibacy is the state of having never had a wife, and is entirely compatible with fornication, adultery, sexual experimentation, & so on.

    What is insisted on in the Roman Rite is not celibacy, or even virginity - widowers, who have by definition ceased to be celibates, can be ordained to the priesthood - but a practice of the virtue of chastity in the form of a continence that forgoes sexual activity for the sake of the Kingdom of God. It is the sacrifice of the exercise of a natural appetite, and is therefore a recognition that what is sacrificed is a good; to sacrifice something bad would be no sacrifice at all.
    Continence, it should be emphasised, is practiced by spouses as truly as by those who are chaste but not married.
    I agree with you to the extant that it is certainly possible to be celibate and to be chaste.

    So, then, what is the cause of so much homosexual behaviour among the clergy of the RC?


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  9. #28
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I agree to the extent that having a celibate clergy reduces the possibility of acceptable sexual outlets, which then find satisfaction in utterly unacceptable ways such as with children. But the Protestant congregations have also had their sexual problems with the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard. "several prominent evangelical institutions have been rocked in recent weeks by their own sexual misconduct allegations against pastors and church leaders who exploited the trust they had gained from faithful churchgoers."

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-us...-in-metoo-era/
    I never said it wasn't an issue in Protestant churches. But it is much more prevalent in the RC which is the discussion here.


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  10. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    I never said it wasn't an issue in Protestant churches. But it is much more prevalent in the RC which is the discussion here.
    I agree, which is rare.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #30
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I agree, which is rare.



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