Universalism

[Seasanctuary]

Greetings all! In another thread, Otto asked me the following question:

When you say universalist are you referring to Unitarian Universalism?

I've decided to open a new thread here in Apologetics as an introduction for people unfamiliar with the idea. This would be a very appropriate thread over in the Theology thread or whatever it's called, but as a nonChristian I'd rather leave that thread to the in-crowd.

On to Otto's question!

No, Unitarian Universalism is all inclusive via stating that no religion is really more right than another.

Christian Universalism is a theological position like Calvanism or KJV-Only-ism (not actually like them, but in the same category)...that believes all humans will be redeemed by Christ through faith.

As I mentioned in another thread, "Lilith" by George MacDonald and "Inferno" by Larry Niven are interesting novels exploring this idea.

Google has a category on this position here.

This position can be seen as an interesting blend of Arminianism and Calvanism. I.e. God really does want everyone to be saved AND God will bring about his will. As a bonus, it totally befuddles the skeptics who question the justice of unending torment.

Like any good theological position, it has its proof texts, e.g:

Scripture Verse:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Scripture Verse:

and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Colossians 1:20

Scripture Verse:

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18

Scripture Verse:

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. John 12:32

Scripture Verse:

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

Comments? I'm particularly interested in hearing whether skeptics would be more willing to follow a Univeralist God than an Armenian or Calvanist God. If so, this would fly in the face of the charge that holding to Universalist theology would stop people from converting to Christianity out of the reasoning that it doesn't matter...that there's no "gun to the head" of unending torment so people then wouldn't want to be Christians.

[jason]

that there's no "gun to the head" of unending torment so people then wouldn't want to be Christians.

Hell is not a "gun to the head" at all.

It is a momument to human choice.

Jason

[Seasanctuary]

Hell is not a "gun to the head" at all.

It is a momument to human choice.

[PhilA]

The threat of Hell has always been used as a gun to the head. Whether or not its theologically true is another matter - it has always been said "Believe in Jesus or burn in hell forever."



I simply cannot reconcile that thinking to the example of how to live that Jesus gave us. The punishment far exceeds the crime IMHO and does not contain the full forgiveness for all sins that the NT talks about when referring to Jesus' mission on Earth.



I am a Christian simply because this act of bringing about forgiveness (through the death of Christ) is worthy of praise and honour. Not because I think that I will burn in hell if I don't. I would be coming to God through fear and not faith if I thought that.

[Seasanctuary]

I simply cannot reconcile that thinking to the example of how to live that Jesus gave us. The punishment far exceeds the crime IMHO and does not contain the full forgiveness for all sins that the NT talks about when referring to Jesus' mission on Earth.

I am a Christian simply because this act of bringing about forgiveness (through the death of Christ) is worthy of praise and honour. Not because I think that I will burn in hell if I don't. I would be coming to God through fear and not faith if I thought that.

Sounds reasonable to me. I think you're taking "love your neighbor" and "love your enemy" more to heart than mainstream Hell preaching Christianity.

[seer]

I believe that Christian universalism has some real biblical merit. Prof. Tom Talbott is a cyber friend of mine and makes a good case for Christian Universalism in the free will model.

He has a great book on the subject - some chapters are on line here:

http://tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/index.html


Of course, there is also Christian Universalism in the determinist model. That too is quite interesting.

[Dave G]

I would be curious to find out what a universalist would do with verses such as Matthew 7:21-23..."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive our demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'"

Although these verses seem to be dealing with religious hypocrites, it seems apparent that Jesus is driving them away.

I'm interested in a rundown (if anybody has read it) of Lilith, since George MacDonald was, I believe, a great hero for C. S. Lewis. I haven't detected any universalism in C. S. Lewis, so I'm interested in the specifics of the novel.

[seer]

lthough these verses seem to be dealing with religious hypocrites, it seems apparent that Jesus is driving them away.

Yes, MacDonald,Talbott and others would agree that men will be thrown into the lake of fire, but that the lake's purpose is to bring men to repentance.

I'm interested in a rundown (if anybody has read it) of Lilith, since George MacDonald was, I believe, a great hero for C. S. Lewis. I haven't detected any universalism in C. S. Lewis, so I'm interested in the specifics of the novel.

CS Lewis rejected universalism. Though he did suspect that Paul taught it. But Lewis was not an innerantist - so he believed that Paul contradicted Christ's teachings in the Gospel. And if memory serves Lewis speaks of that in his book "Reflections on the Psalms."

[SlipSlidin'Away]

Hi,
I'm brand new here. This is my first post, so sorry if I don't do this right.

I just read a great book on Universalism called "If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland (two Quaker pastors). The way that the authors got around the Bible verses that were not in their favor was to discuss discernment, so obviously, they weren't inerrantist either. Although they discussed their reasons for their beliefs based on their experiences, their discussion was not very Scripturally-based, which was one of the criticisms that I heard about it.

One of the interesting parts was when they talked about people who are upset with the concept that some people won't go to Hell. They indicated that these may be the last people to get into Heaven until they repent of their self-righteous behavior. (Sorry, I can't quote them. I don't have the book in front of me.)

[Seasanctuary]

I'm interested in a rundown (if anybody has read it) of Lilith, since George MacDonald was, I believe, a great hero for C. S. Lewis. I haven't detected any universalism in C. S. Lewis, so I'm interested in the specifics of the novel.

Dave, I have the book and have read it (which is why I recommended it in the first post). I really just recommend ordering it or checking it out and reading it yourself...provided you like fantasy of similar type to Lewis' Perelandria or Narnia stuff.

Same goes for Larry Niven's "Inferno." It's about a modern sci-fi author who dies and goes to Hell...and it's Dante's Hell. He goes down the malbolgia Dante travelled...well, generally. There's a big difference in Dante as a living Christian being guided by angels...and an (until recently) Atheist taking the path as one of the dead...and without as much help.

...note how I did everything but detail Lilith for you.

[Seasanctuary]

I would be curious to find out what a universalist would do with verses such as Matthew 7:21-23..."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive our demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'"

Although these verses seem to be dealing with religious hypocrites, it seems apparent that Jesus is driving them away.

Yes, I would like to see a Universalist address that.

I personally think the Annihilationist position is most compatable with the Bible as a whole. Although I don't think the Bible is consistant enough for any particular position to explain all the relevant verses.