January 28th 2004, 02:35 AM #1
Greetings all! In another thread, Otto asked me the following question:
Originally posted by Otto
On to Otto's question!
No, Unitarian Universalism is all inclusive via stating that no religion is really more right than another.
Christian Universalism is a theological position like Calvanism or KJV-Only-ism (not actually like them, but in the same category)...that believes all humans will be redeemed by Christ through faith.
As I mentioned in another thread, "Lilith" by George MacDonald and "Inferno" by Larry Niven are interesting novels exploring this idea.
Google has a category on this position here.
This position can be seen as an interesting blend of Arminianism and Calvanism. I.e. God really does want everyone to be saved AND God will bring about his will. As a bonus, it totally befuddles the skeptics who question the justice of unending torment.
Like any good theological position, it has its proof texts, e.g:
Comments? I'm particularly interested in hearing whether skeptics would be more willing to follow a Univeralist God than an Armenian or Calvanist God. If so, this would fly in the face of the charge that holding to Universalist theology would stop people from converting to Christianity out of the reasoning that it doesn't matter...that there's no "gun to the head" of unending torment so people then wouldn't want to be Christians."'tis usual for men to use words for ideas, and to talk instead of thinking in their reasonings." A Treatise of Human Nature, I.II.V.
January 28th 2004, 03:22 AM #2
Re: UniversalismOriginally posted by Seasanctuary
It is a momument to human choice.
JasonBye all. See you around. If you wish to contact me send email to email@example.com
January 28th 2004, 04:05 AM #3
Re: UniversalismOriginally posted by jason"'tis usual for men to use words for ideas, and to talk instead of thinking in their reasonings." A Treatise of Human Nature, I.II.V.
January 28th 2004, 04:41 AM #4
The threat of Hell has always been used as a gun to the head. Whether or not its theologically true is another matter - it has always been said "Believe in Jesus or burn in hell forever."
I simply cannot reconcile that thinking to the example of how to live that Jesus gave us. The punishment far exceeds the crime IMHO and does not contain the full forgiveness for all sins that the NT talks about when referring to Jesus' mission on Earth.
I am a Christian simply because this act of bringing about forgiveness (through the death of Christ) is worthy of praise and honour. Not because I think that I will burn in hell if I don't. I would be coming to God through fear and not faith if I thought that.
January 28th 2004, 04:55 AM #5
Re: UniversalismOriginally posted by PhilA"'tis usual for men to use words for ideas, and to talk instead of thinking in their reasonings." A Treatise of Human Nature, I.II.V.
January 28th 2004, 08:45 AM #6
I believe that Christian universalism has some real biblical merit. Prof. Tom Talbott is a cyber friend of mine and makes a good case for Christian Universalism in the free will model.
He has a great book on the subject - some chapters are on line here:
Of course, there is also Christian Universalism in the determinist model. That too is quite interesting."And all our yesterdays have lighted fools, the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Shakespeare
January 28th 2004, 10:12 AM #7
I would be curious to find out what a universalist would do with verses such as Matthew 7:21-23..."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive our demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'"
Although these verses seem to be dealing with religious hypocrites, it seems apparent that Jesus is driving them away.
I'm interested in a rundown (if anybody has read it) of Lilith, since George MacDonald was, I believe, a great hero for C. S. Lewis. I haven't detected any universalism in C. S. Lewis, so I'm interested in the specifics of the novel.COGITO ERGO CHICO AND ZEPPO~ from Tonio K's website.
January 28th 2004, 10:23 AM #8
lthough these verses seem to be dealing with religious hypocrites, it seems apparent that Jesus is driving them away.
Yes, MacDonald,Talbott and others would agree that men will be thrown into the lake of fire, but that the lake's purpose is to bring men to repentance.
I'm interested in a rundown (if anybody has read it) of Lilith, since George MacDonald was, I believe, a great hero for C. S. Lewis. I haven't detected any universalism in C. S. Lewis, so I'm interested in the specifics of the novel.
CS Lewis rejected universalism. Though he did suspect that Paul taught it. But Lewis was not an innerantist - so he believed that Paul contradicted Christ's teachings in the Gospel. And if memory serves Lewis speaks of that in his book "Reflections on the Psalms.""And all our yesterdays have lighted fools, the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Shakespeare
January 28th 2004, 08:08 PM #9
I'm brand new here. This is my first post, so sorry if I don't do this right.
I just read a great book on Universalism called "If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland (two Quaker pastors). The way that the authors got around the Bible verses that were not in their favor was to discuss discernment, so obviously, they weren't inerrantist either. Although they discussed their reasons for their beliefs based on their experiences, their discussion was not very Scripturally-based, which was one of the criticisms that I heard about it.
One of the interesting parts was when they talked about people who are upset with the concept that some people won't go to Hell. They indicated that these may be the last people to get into Heaven until they repent of their self-righteous behavior. (Sorry, I can't quote them. I don't have the book in front of me.)
January 29th 2004, 01:39 AM #10
Re: UniversalismOriginally posted by Dave G
Same goes for Larry Niven's "Inferno." It's about a modern sci-fi author who dies and goes to Hell...and it's Dante's Hell. He goes down the malbolgia Dante travelled...well, generally. There's a big difference in Dante as a living Christian being guided by angels...and an (until recently) Atheist taking the path as one of the dead...and without as much help.
...note how I did everything but detail Lilith for you.
January 29th 2004, 01:56 AM #11
Re: UniversalismOriginally posted by Dave G
I personally think the Annihilationist position is most compatable with the Bible as a whole. Although I don't think the Bible is consistant enough for any particular position to explain all the relevant verses.
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