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Voter ID Redux

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    According to that, native Americans can easily register to vote even without a traditional street address. So what exactly is the issue here?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post


      IF there is a problem with the Indian's not being able to vote, they need to fix it. But I am thinking this is more of a liberal whine than something real. But it really isn't a Voter ID thing is it? more of a voter address thing. Having a valid residence in a voting district is paramount to knowing who can vote in which elections. This isn't something new and it is a universal requirement everywhere.
      I could have a post office box in your zip code if I wanted to.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        According to that, native Americans can easily register to vote even without a traditional street address. So what exactly is the issue here?
        That's why I'm asking what I'm missing.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Yes, that's the link I posted, and where I got the information that makes it appear this is a tempest in a non-existing tea cup.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            What am I missing
            This precise issue has just gone through the courts all the way up to SCOTUS:

            ...the Supreme Court refused to intervene in a challenge to a North Dakota voter ID law.

            The law requires that North Dakota residents provide identification that includes a residential street address in order to vote. But the state is home to thousands of Native Americans and others who do not have standard addresses, which the challengers argued would effectively disenfranchise them.

            A federal district court in North Dakota agreed with them in April, blocking the Secretary of State from enforcing the new requirements and thereby allowing voters to cast ballots in the primaries. But last month, the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals put the district court’s order on hold.

            The challengers therefore submitted an urgent request to the Supreme Court asking the justices to toss out the law, but the Court denied it without explanation—with the exception of Justice Ginsburg, who wrote a dissent to which Justice Kagan joined...

            In her dissent, Ginsburg highlighted that 70,000 North Dakota residents, which constitutes nearly 20% of the turnout “in a regular quadrennial election—lack a qualifying ID” under the the law’s provisions. Another 18,000 residents “lack supplemental documentation sufficient to permit them to vote without a qualifying ID.”

            What’s more, Ginsburg noted that changing the rules ahead of November’s election could cause confusion amongst voters. “The risk of voter confusion appears severe here because the injunction against requiring residential-address identification was in force during the primary election and because the Secretary of State’s website announced for months the ID requirements as they existed under that injunction,” Ginsburg said.

            “Reasonable voters may well assume that the IDs allowing them to vote in the primary election would remain valid in the general election.”
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              This precise issue has just gone through the courts all the way up to SCOTUS:

              ...the Supreme Court refused to intervene in a challenge to a North Dakota voter ID law.

              The law requires that North Dakota residents provide identification that includes a residential street address in order to vote. But the state is home to thousands of Native Americans and others who do not have standard addresses, which the challengers argued would effectively disenfranchise them.

              A federal district court in North Dakota agreed with them in April, blocking the Secretary of State from enforcing the new requirements and thereby allowing voters to cast ballots in the primaries. But last month, the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals put the district court’s order on hold.

              The challengers therefore submitted an urgent request to the Supreme Court asking the justices to toss out the law, but the Court denied it without explanation—with the exception of Justice Ginsburg, who wrote a dissent to which Justice Kagan joined...

              In her dissent, Ginsburg highlighted that 70,000 North Dakota residents, which constitutes nearly 20% of the turnout “in a regular quadrennial election—lack a qualifying ID” under the the law’s provisions. Another 18,000 residents “lack supplemental documentation sufficient to permit them to vote without a qualifying ID.”

              What’s more, Ginsburg noted that changing the rules ahead of November’s election could cause confusion amongst voters. “The risk of voter confusion appears severe here because the injunction against requiring residential-address identification was in force during the primary election and because the Secretary of State’s website announced for months the ID requirements as they existed under that injunction,” Ginsburg said.

              “Reasonable voters may well assume that the IDs allowing them to vote in the primary election would remain valid in the general election.”
              18,000 people of voting age do not pay bills, get a paycheck, or have a bank account?

              The Supreme Court denies certiorari in nearly all the cases it's asked to hear, and that's routinely done without explanation. It only takes 4 justices to grant; it looks like in this case only two were willing to do so.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                So it seems there is no clarity on also designating such people as part of the 50 states. So far it would be arbitrary to claim that someone holding to identity to a tribal nation should have access to vote through one state or another. How do you decide which state they would vote through? There also would be a need to have different ballots for native Americans who held state citizenship from native Americans who prioritized their tribal nationality. Next you have to figure out how to associate tribal nation population with this or that state.

                How will the relationship between various aspects be resolve? States are supreme in their rule when the US constitution hasn't granted power to the US Government. Treaties between the US and the tribes have supremacy between those two entities. The US Constitution hasn't sought to grant representation to tribal nations. It seems that the tribal nations come closest to US territories which are not generally granted representation. It may even be easier for a Puerto Rican than a native American to move to a state and be a citizen there.
                Yet the fact is that Native Americans in the U.S. have the right to vote - and have had it for a long, long time. It is now being denied in North Dakota for the lack of a specific street address.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Just for grins, rather than take the word of an opinion piece, I went to the North Dakota Secretary of State website:

                  https://vip.sos.nd.gov/idrequirements.aspx

                  It refers to "residential address".

                  It says Identification must include the voter’s:
                  Name
                  Current North Dakota Residential Address
                  Date of Birth

                  And it allows for "Tribal government issued identification (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address)"

                  It also allows...

                  If an individual’s valid form of identification does not include the North Dakota residential address or date of birth, or the North Dakota residential address is not current, the individual may supplement the identification with a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.

                  So, is this information superseded by some new law?

                  I know of many people in Texas who have PO boxes, but also have a "rural route 7" type address.

                  If the people on the reservation have electricity or water or trash pick up, they have to have some kind of "residential address" to tell where that service is provided.



                  What am I missing, oh great condescending one?
                  Looks like Carpe did what he accuses others of doing. He took the word of a liberal site as gospel and failed to do his homework. Bad boy?
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Just for grins, rather than take the word of an opinion piece, I went to the North Dakota Secretary of State website:

                    https://vip.sos.nd.gov/idrequirements.aspx

                    It refers to "residential address".

                    It says Identification must include the voter’s:
                    Name
                    Current North Dakota Residential Address
                    Date of Birth

                    And it allows for "Tribal government issued identification (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address)"

                    It also allows...

                    If an individual’s valid form of identification does not include the North Dakota residential address or date of birth, or the North Dakota residential address is not current, the individual may supplement the identification with a current utility bill; a current bank statement; a check or a document issued by a federal, state, local, or tribal government (including those issued by BIA for a tribe located in North Dakota, any other tribal agency or entity, or any other document that sets forth the tribal member’s name, date of birth, and current North Dakota residential address); or a paycheck.

                    So, is this information superseded by some new law?

                    I know of many people in Texas who have PO boxes, but also have a "rural route 7" type address.

                    If the people on the reservation have electricity or water or trash pick up, they have to have some kind of "residential address" to tell where that service is provided.



                    What am I missing, oh great condescending one?
                    You are missing that 65K+ of these people do not have a residential street address - because the USPS does not deliver on many of these lands. So they have a P.O. Box. instead. They have a mailing address - not a street address. So if they try to provide a copy of a bill, it will reflect a P.O. Box, not a residential address - thereby disqualifying them from voter registration.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      FWIU, Cramer is sufficiently ahead in the polls that Heitkamp didn't think that voting for Kavanaugh would be sufficient to swing things her way. Sounds like someone's using the time-honored tradition of scare tactics.
                      Who is or is not ahead is actually irrelevant. It wouldn't matter of this could swing the vote, if Heitkamp would win with or without these votes, or if Heitcamp would loose with or without these votes. What matters, IMO, is that U.S. Citizens who previously had a right to vote are being denied that right over a bureaucratic technicality. That is what many of these voter ID laws do. It is usually to the detriment of the Democratic party, which is one of the reasons I believe Republicans love these laws. But the problem would exist whether it benefits Republicans, Democrats, or Green Party candidates. Eliminating valid U.S. citizens from voting is wrong - period.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Take a look at the Georgia Governors race. The republican candidate, in this neck and neck race, also controls the voter registration rolls and is rejecting on ridiculous technicalities some 50 thousand majority black registrations, unbeknownst to the registrants themselves, in order to suppress the vote of his democrat opponent.
                        Citation...? I can't find anything on this...
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          According to that, native Americans can easily register to vote even without a traditional street address. So what exactly is the issue here?
                          If you read it - every part of it says that "residential address" is required. The problem is that some 65K of these tribe members do not have a residential address. They have a P.O. Box - but no numerical street address. Ergo, the tribal ID does not reflect it - the driver's license does not reflect it. Their address is a P.O. Box. As best I can tell - this is the case. So they cannot provide one of the three required pieces of information for voter registration.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            18,000 people of voting age do not pay bills, get a paycheck, or have a bank account?

                            The Supreme Court denies certiorari in nearly all the cases it's asked to hear, and that's routinely done without explanation. It only takes 4 justices to grant; it looks like in this case only two were willing to do so.
                            Wow - I don't know if people are being intentionally thick - but this has been explained multiple times. They do these things with a P.O. Box. - not a residential street address.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              Looks like Carpe did what he accuses others of doing. He took the word of a liberal site as gospel and failed to do his homework. Bad boy?
                              Actually - I did look into it, and found all of the things that have been linked to here so far - confirming what was said in the OP. That includes the ND website, and the SCOTUS summary.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Eliminating valid U.S. citizens from voting is wrong - period.
                                Do you understand the extent to which that value is a partisan left-wing value though? Especially in the US.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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