Trump could be the most honest president in modern history

[One Bad Pig]

Ah, well at least I understand what you were thinking of. However, not only does he understate Trump's lying, he doesn't cover any the moral lapses associated with keeping his promises. And here I refer (WOLG) to the disastrous handling of minor children in the implementation of changes to the US immigration policies. Sure he kept his promise, but at what moral and human cost?

And that is my point. If one ignores obvious moral lapses and lying in congratulating him on success in keeping promises, we come dangerously close to "the end justifies the means."


Jim

Jim, blame the law-breaking parents for that, not the one directing that the law be enforced.

I am not going to discuss Trump with you further; in my opinion, you are not capable of discussing him rationally. I get that you think he's evil incarnate (I exaggerate only slightly), and that nothing I say is going to change your mind. I don't need the added stress of banging my head against the wall.

[oxmixmudd]

Jim, blame the law-breaking parents for that, not the one directing that the law be enforced.

I can't do that. Because children are innocents here. And while it may be difficult to determine what to do with them while the parents are processed, not having a comprehensive plan in place before you start is inexcusable. Not keeping up with which child is paired with which parent. Doing silly things like putting a 4 year old on a plane without co-coordinating with the destination? One of the issues here is that the rush to implement the solution (makes Trump look like he keeps his promises) is at the expense of the innocents affected by the implementation. Waiting till critical problems are solved (putting the innocents before the ego) is what should be done. Similarly the fiasco in Puerto Rico where Trump appears to have allowed his personal anger at the mayor there to interfere with efforts to help the residents.

I am not going to discuss Trump with you further; in my opinion, you are not capable of discussing him rationally. I get that you think he's evil incarnate (I exaggerate only slightly), and that nothing I say is going to change your mind. I don't need the added stress of banging my head against the wall.

Well, I certainly did my very best to have a dispassionate, calm, and logical discussion with you. I didn't ignore anything you said. I read the article and your posts carefully and then I explained my reasoning for each of my opinions calmly. I did not use any invective against you, Trump, or the author of the article.

Can you think of anything else I could have done to make this conversation less frustrating for you short of simply agreeing with the point of view of the article?


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

what type of moral lapses do you have in mind here?

I mentioned a few of them in my last response to OBP. Others would include praising or (feigned?) admiring the tactics of dictators and despots as part of trying to solve the North Korea problem (the negative effect of that sort of thing relates to enhanced abuse of the people he governs) His public shaming of Ford at a rally as part of building support for Kavanaugh. I don't have time right now to build a complete or substantial list.

which politician or president has had fewer moral lapses ?

I wouldn't know in an absolute sense. Most of them? Certainly the two Bush's and Ronald Reagan. I'll avoid the obvious derail that would result from mentioning any Democrats.

It seems that most things people have called 'lies' are simply just the salesman form of speech he has. I haven't really followed what Trump has done in the past. But now he seems to speak in bargaining terms and positive terms. It seems like instinctive (or learned) to make people feel good going into bargaining and then he would work out the details as he needs to. Anyone who would do business with him should normally be prepped to expect that positive talk.

But his exaggerated speak is better than most presidents who have undetectable overstatements and deceptions.

which presidents have been less of liars?

I think this is one of those challenges that has no possible real end, so my component of it will be brief. Depending on how it goes . "But what about Z" would be what I expect, circle after circle.

As I see it, Trump has created so many new ways of lying while keeping all the old ones around for posterity it seems a no brainer. But just the fact he's lowering the moral bar for the Presidency on an almost daily basis I think speaks for itself.


Jim

[mikewhitney]

I mentioned a few of them in my last response to OBP. Others would include praising or (feigned?) admiring the tactics of dictators and despots as part of trying to solve the North Korea problem (the negative effect of that sort of thing relates to enhanced abuse of the people he governs) His public shaming of Ford at a rally as part of building support for Kavanaugh. I don't have time right now to build a complete or substantial list.



I wouldn't know in an absolute sense. Most of them? Certainly the two Bush's and Ronald Reagan. I'll avoid the obvious derail that would result from mentioning any Democrats.




I think this is one of those challenges that has no possible real end, so my component of it will be brief. Depending on how it goes . "But what about Z" would be what I expect, circle after circle.

As I see it, Trump has created so many new ways of lying while keeping all the old ones around for posterity it seems a no brainer. But just the fact he's lowering the moral bar for the Presidency on an almost daily basis I think speaks for itself.


Jim

I don't see anything worse than any other typical president here. Most of the previous presidents were just more diplomatic (clever, secretive, deceptive) in their lies and goals.

[oxmixmudd]

I don't see anything worse than any other typical president here. Most of the previous presidents were just more diplomatic (clever, secretive, deceptive) in their lies and goals.

So you would simply dismiss most of not all of the boorish behavior of Trump's that 'treads new ground' for a president as 'inconsequential'? His focus on himself over almost all else likewise? His buddy type comments about dictators, comments that have inflamed race relations, lack of focus on Puerto Rico during their crisis (and continuing), willingness to proceed with an immigration polity that puts thousand of children at risk and so on. All this is just minor stuff that we should not be concerned about?

Jim

[seer]

So you would simply dismiss most of not all of the boorish behavior of Trump's that 'treads new ground' for a president as 'inconsequential'? His focus on himself over almost all else likewise? His buddy type comments about dictators, comments that have inflamed race relations, lack of focus on Puerto Rico during their crisis (and continuing), willingness to proceed with an immigration polity that puts thousand of children at risk and so on. All this is just minor stuff that we should not be concerned about?

Jim

Nonsense Jim, Trump is the only president in my memory that is actually trying to do what he campaigned on. And in a large part he is getting it done. And BTW Puerto Rico was an absolute mess long before the hurricane hit it.

[RumTumTugger]

There's that old principle "it's ok to lie to your enemy".

isnt' that the muslem principle?

[oxmixmudd]

Nonsense Jim, Trump is the only president in my memory that is actually trying to do what he campaigned on. And in a large part he is getting it done. And BTW Puerto Rico was an absolute mess long before the hurricane hit it.

We've discussed Puerto Rico before. I doubt we can resolve that at this point. The statements you make are far to general to allow for even close to a useful discussion. However, since they are so general, they can be rebutted with a single example. I'll just say Ronald Reagan is one. Although I'm pretty sure most of Presidents can be shown to have tried to do what they campaigned on (at least in part). Obama certainly with Universal Healthcare.


Jim

[mikewhitney]

So you would simply dismiss most of not all of the boorish behavior of Trump's that 'treads new ground' for a president as 'inconsequential'? His focus on himself over almost all else likewise? His buddy type comments about dictators, comments that have inflamed race relations, lack of focus on Puerto Rico during their crisis (and continuing), willingness to proceed with an immigration polity that puts thousand of children at risk and so on. All this is just minor stuff that we should not be concerned about?

Jim

Boorish behavior? If you mean that he is willing to fight for what is right, then that is what we need. He is the first Republican president (sort of since Reagan) to actually stand up against the adverse behavior of Democrats -- with the latest Democrats raising up all sorts of violence and evil right now.

The Democrats have inflamed race relations as a tactic against Trump. You probably are just thinking he is anti-Jewish, aren't you?

Immigration? It seems that Trump is continuing the requirements of the law which, oddly enough, were upheld by Obama too. The laws on immigration are determined by Congress not by Trump. There were plenty of opportunities when the Democrats were in control and could have changed the laws.




Puerto Rico? I didn't know he was part of the Red Cross.

[oxmixmudd]

Boorish behavior? If you mean that he is willing to fight for what is right, then that is what we need.

I haven't noticed him fighting for 'what is right'. He does fight for what he wants. Sometimes what he wants is right. sometimes not. Just depends.

He is the first Republican president (sort of since Reagan) to actually stand up against the adverse behavior of Democrats -- with the latest Democrats raising up all sorts of violence and evil right now.

I will admit he is more willing to get into a fight that most before him. And we have been lacking some backbone in the Republican candidates. But I would disagree that Trump is a very good solution to that problem. The words 'Over the top' come to mind.

The Democrats have inflamed race relations as a tactic against Trump. You probably are just thinking he is anti-Jewish, aren't you?

Oh dear. That one is out there. Err no. anti-black perhaps. Misogynistic for sure. But he definitely does not appear to be anti-Jewish.

Immigration? It seems that Trump is continuing the requirements of the law which, oddly enough, were upheld by Obama too.

That is not so simply dismissed. Yes, I will agree 100% we have been ridiculously lax in enforcing borders. You can lay all of that on those that came before. I'm not against Trump tightening up the borders. That could be a very good thing, if in the process he wasn't shutting down necessary avenues to immigration and confining innocent kids caught in the cross-hairs of the change w/o properly documenting who their parents are and tracking the connection as the parents are processed through the system. Again, if we ignore Trumps lack of moral character and its influence on HOW he implements the promises he seems motivated to keep, then we devolve to 'the end justifies the means'.

The laws on immigration are determined by Congress not by Trump. There were plenty of opportunities when the Democrats were in control and could have changed the laws.

I see.

Puerto Rico? I didn't know he was part of the Red Cross.

The US Federal government renders aid to States and Territories in times of extreme Emergency. FEMA is one major organization that helps supply that aid. Puerto Rico is a US Territory. Its citizens pay taxes, serve in the Military etc. And they deserved just as much help after Maria as NC after Florence, Florida after Michael, New Orleans after Katrina and so on.


Jim

[Leonhard]

4.2 percent growth in the second quarter of 2018.

True, though this also happened at least three times under Obama.

[seer]

True, though this also happened at least three times under Obama.

The FED estimates a 3% + GDP growth for 2018. Obama never had that kind of yearly growth. And we are just beginning.

[Leonhard]

The FED estimates a 3% + GDP growth for 2018. Obama never had that kind of yearly growth. And we are just beginning.

That would be nice.

I was only responding to the 4% claim. The market goes through cycles. One quarter is typically a lot larger than the others. And the 4% number also happened a couple of times during Obama's presidency.

Overall I prefer the long term look, and aside from a fluctuation when the housing market inevitably collapsed, we've seen a recovery since then. This is what the big picture looks like for the US.



https://www.google.com/publicdata/ex...l=en&ind=false

[Charles]

Or like George Staphylococcus said about Slick Willy, "He has kept every promise he intended to keep."

And making promises you don't intend to keep is .......?

[One Bad Pig]

Can you think of anything else I could have done to make this conversation less frustrating for you short of simply agreeing with the point of view of the article?

Jim

I can't help that you are seemingly blind to your penchant to paint Trump in the worst possible light on everything whatsoever, Jim. If your intent was dispassion and logic, you missed. Badly. That you are wholly unaware of that is why conversation with you on the topic is so frustrating, and why I'd rather pass.