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Thread: White Patriarchy...

  1. #21
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post


    It's far more than just "moderate".
    Its moderate. Any average male can be fully subdued by two females. Men do have a strength advantage, but we're not Hulk.

    I'm not sure its valuable in this discussion to hassle out how moderate something has to be before its moderate.

  2. #22
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Any average male can be fully subdued by two females.
    I think you're either severely either underestimating how strong the average male is, or overestimating the strength of the average female. An average male could easily overpower the average female without expending much energy. Simply adding one more female to the equation isn't going to change much. I'm not saying two females couldn't beat a male in a fight, but they'd have to rely on something other than their strength to do it.

  3. #23
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    No Leonhard I was speaking of women, I made an exception for blacks because they did not ask to come here.


    I don't see any indication of it. Do you have a good reason why you believe this?
    Who knows, the point remains - men gave women the vote and they did not have to.


    No, its not nonsense. You can't make a moral decision based upon possible future moral decisions. Women chose these things, and things could have been otherwise. That bad things were chosen would not change that it was good that they got the right to vote.

    I'll always support women's right to vote seer.
    You are correct, we are not prophets, but let me ask you Leonhard if you had the choice between abortion being legal or women losing the vote - which would you choose?


    You seem to be confused seer. All of the hunter-gatherer societies documented in that book, are hunter-gatherer societies that exist currently in our world. The findings apply even to groups deep in the jungles that had no contact with modern civilisation.

    So its not a matter of me speculating wildly. This is a matter of empirical fact: Almost all hunter-gatherer socities that we have access to are largely egalitarian.
    I'm asking you to show that men are not dominate even in these societies


    Would you define it then, if you aren't talking about sexual patterns involving a single alpha male with near exclusive access to the females? Because its not at all clear to me what you're talking about then.
    I'm speaking of males generally dominating females, like my link talks about.


    Yes, in that she was a partner. And they had a complementary, yet equal relationship.
    But they are not exactly equal are they? Men have leadership roles, women don't.

    Ordained to priesthood was what you were talking about. And now you're talking about leadership roles. Again you're moving the goal post seer.

    I don't believe women can be ordained to the priesthood. I do believe women can be leaders.
    Why do you believe that women can be leaders when God Himself won't allow it in His church?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #24
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Leonhard I was speaking of women,
    Alright. That wasn't clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard
    Quote Originally Posted by seer
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard
    Last time I said that unless you could make a case that women would have gotten the right to vote, regardless of the sufragettes, then its the sufragettes who are the cause. And that's the best interpretation. Without the suffragette movement, and the works of women to that effect, women would not have been granted the right to vote.
    Yes, I think men would have eventually given them the right to vote, in either case it was up to the men.
    I don't see any indication of it. Do you have a good reason why you believe this?
    , the point remains - men gave women the vote and they did not have to.
    So I open up by saying that the suffragetes are historically taken as being the cause of women getting the right to vote. They were the torch bearers of that movement, even if it is a complicated relationship, and companies weren't exactly against the idea of having more workers.

    I offered you a route to make that argument, that men would have given women the voting right. All you had to do was make it, but instead you simply repeated "Men gave women the right to vote" and finally "Who knows"

    That isn't exactly a strong argument seer. One is just you stomping your foot and asserting what you believe. The other is the opposite.

    You are correct, we are not prophets, but let me ask you Leonhard if you had the choice between abortion being legal or women losing the vote - which would you choose?
    That's a false choice seer. Only God would be able to timelessly know the course of history. I refuse to engage in a problem like that. That women voted for abortion then, is no reason for women to not have the right to vote.

    I'm asking you to show that men are not dominate even in these societies
    First of all I've asked you to clarify what you meant by 'domaninate' you're just throwing the term around. I offered you the sexual differences between apes, because you were referring to them. After you made it clear you were talking about their sexual patterns, I decided to ask for clarifications. Animals don't have culture, so you'd just have to point to some very specific behaviours that are suitable similar in humans.

    You havne't done that, you've just repeated yourself. Are you even aware of any post in this discussion other than the one you're replying to?

    I also offered you a link to a book, which itself has references you can follow. Already in the first few pages it details a lot of egalitarian features of those societies. Its backed up in a lot of other research.

    I think I've been fairly charitable in this discussion. I'm just waiting for you to stop repeating yourself.

    Why do you believe that women can be leaders when God Himself won't allow it in His church?
    I don't think you're talking about the priesthood anymore. There's nothing wrong with women who are acting as teachers, who are theologians, scholars, who handle treasure funds, who lead parish events, who do all sorts of leadership roles in the Church. None of that is uncommon. I've only, and specifically talked about the priest himself.

    The only passage in the Scripture I can find, is with St. Paul in his first letter the the Corinthians. And its very unclear that this applies universally to all leadership roles and for all time. St. Paul even allowed that women could prophesize, back when this still took place. And there have been women prophets, and its been part of tradition that the office of prophet was a higher status than priest.

    In Acts 16 you even have a hint of a woman teaching a man, when Pricilla is mentioned before her husband Aquilla inviting Apollos home to teach him the true nature of Christ.

    There's plenty of reasonable doubt as to the interpretation of St. Paul who is at times very hard to get right, even St. Peter complained as much.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 10-16-2018 at 01:22 PM.

  5. #25
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    First of all I've asked you to clarify what you meant by 'domaninate' you're just throwing the term around. I offered you the sexual differences between apes, because you were referring to them. After you made it clear you were talking about their sexual patterns, I decided to ask for clarifications. Animals don't have culture, so you'd just have to point to some very specific behaviours that are suitable similar in humans.
    There's two typos here so I'll just retype it for clarity.

    I've bolded the changes.

    "First of all I've asked you to clarify what you meant by 'dominate' you're just throwing the term around. I offered you the sexual differences between apes, because you were referring to them. After you made it clear you were not talking about their sexual patterns, I decided to ask for clarifications. Animals don't have culture, so you'd just have to point to some very specific behaviours that are suitable similar in humans."

  6. #26
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Alright. That wasn't clear to me.

    So I open up by saying that the suffragettes are historically taken as being the cause of women getting the right to vote. They were the torch bearers of that movement, even if it is a complicated relationship, and companies weren't exactly against the idea of having more workers.

    I offered you a route to make that argument, that men would have given women the voting right. All you had to do was make it, but instead you simply repeated "Men gave women the right to vote" and finally "Who knows"

    That isn't exactly a strong argument seer. One is just you stomping your foot and asserting what you believe. The other is the opposite.
    No Leonhard, I have been pretty clear, men gave women the vote, suffragettes and other things may have played a role but the fact was that men had the power to allow or not.

    That's a false choice seer. Only God would be able to timelessly know the course of history. I refuse to engage in a problem like that. That women voted for abortion then, is no reason for women to not have the right to vote.
    It is not false choice, we know what feminism has lead to.



    First of all I've asked you to clarify what you meant by 'domaninate' you're just throwing the term around. I offered you the sexual differences between apes, because you were referring to them. After you made it clear you were talking about their sexual patterns, I decided to ask for clarifications. Animals don't have culture, so you'd just have to point to some very specific behaviours that are suitable similar in humans.

    You havne't done that, you've just repeated yourself. Are you even aware of any post in this discussion other than the one you're replying to?

    I also offered you a link to a book, which itself has references you can follow. Already in the first few pages it details a lot of egalitarian features of those societies. Its backed up in a lot of other research.
    I am speaking of males or men being in charge of the group. For instance I know a good deal about American Indians and as far as I know Chiefs and tribal leaders were always male. I would like to see your hunter-gatherer groups where this isn't the case. Having egalitarian features does not prevent male dominance.

    I don't think you're talking about the priesthood anymore. There's nothing wrong with women who are acting as teachers, who are theologians, scholars, who handle treasure funds, who lead parish events, who do all sorts of leadership roles in the Church. None of that is uncommon. I've only, and specifically talked about the priest himself.
    The priest, or in our case the pastor, have the final say. The are the CEOs. This ultimate position of authority is not granted to women. So why should it be granted to women in the secular world? Should not the Church be a model for the world?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #27
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The reason societies developed as patriarchies is because the women had the children and the men protected them and provided for them in order to perpetuate their families. The world was a pretty dangerous place at one time.
    All perfectly true. But this is not the situation now. We no longer live in 'hunter/gatherer' societies. The world has changed and the roles of men and women have changed along with it.

    These same feminists who claim to be the physical equal to men and want to take over socieity
    Feminists are not claiming to be the physical equal to men and they are not trying to take over society. They are, quite reasonably, claiming equal rights to men.

    are the same ones who are boo-hooing about how men dominate and rape women and women can't go out by themselves at night because all men are rapists and are commiserating with Ford about how she was abused.
    ANYONE, male or female, who is dominated and raped is entitled to a bit of "boo-hooing", to use you Trumpian-style victim-mockery. And your casual dismissal of Dr Ford is unconscionable, but we've come to expect nothing less from Evangelicals.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    All perfectly true. But this is not the situation now. We no longer live in 'hunter/gatherer' societies. The world has changed and the roles of men and women have changed along with it.
    I was talking about why we have patriarchies in the first place, Tass. Why most societies are patriarchies now.


    Feminists are not claiming to be the physical equal to men and they are not trying to take over society. They are, quite reasonably, claiming equal rights to men.
    no, actually many are trying to claim equality physically too. That is why they want the same jobs, even the military, why they insist on being able to compete with men in sports, why they don't want men to help them out in any way. I freely admit that there are some women out there that actually ARE the physical equal to some men. But in general they are not. The average woman is not the physical equal to the average man. and I don't have any problem with women having equal rights to men. Just with the feminazis that hate men and call them all rapists and such.


    ANYONE, male or female, who is dominated and raped is entitled to a bit of "boo-hooing", to use you Trumpian-style victim-mockery. And your casual dismissal of Dr Ford is unconscionable, but we've come to expect nothing less from Evangelicals.
    Virtue signalling acknowledged.


  9. #29
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Okay seer, I think its safe to say you've made your position clear. You believe what you believe, I disagree and have argued why. You haven't interacted with those arguments, and you're just repeating yourself now like a broken record.

    I bow out of this conversation.

    May God bless you seer.

  10. #30
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post

    May God bless you seer.
    And you too Brother!
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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