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Book Plunge: Mary For Evangelicals

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  • Book Plunge: Mary For Evangelicals

    Thoughts on Tim Perry's book?

    Link

    -----

    What do I think of Tim Perry's book published by IVP? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Mary is often a controversial topic for Protestants? Why? We see what the Orthodox and the Catholics do and while I agree it is over the top, we can go too far in the opposite direction. Protestants don't really have much of a position on Mary other than "We disagree with Catholics and Orthodox." Protestants like myself need to really learn how to view Mary.

    Fortunately, Tim Perry has written an excellent book on that topic. One who reads this book will have to agree that it is thorough. Perry goes from Paul to the Gospels to the early church, the medieval church, to the Reformation, and finally to our own time. Of course, not everything can be covered, but major highlights in the timeline will be.

    Perry also works on sticking with what the sources say and presenting differing viewpoints where relevant. We could say that for Protestants, usually Mary shows up at Christmas and then is rushed off of the scene so we can move on to other aspects of the life of Jesus. This could be the case for the Gospels. Mark presents Mary in a section alongside of Jesus's opponents where she and the family are well-meaning opponents, but still acting as opponents. If all we had was John, we wouldn't even know Mary's name.

    Going through church history, we start with the early fathers and see the impact of the Protoevangelium of James on the early church. Many did believe it to be a true report, though thankfully some were skeptical. At times, it looks like the early church decided to fill in some missing gaps (Much like many of think needs to be done with the childhood of Jesus) and those explanations can be seen as accurate not because they're shown to be, but because they're thought to be fitting of what God would do.

    When you get to the Middle Ages, you get to a time that seems to have really stretched. You will have feasts that are done to honor the conception of Mary. This is a good entry to prepare us for the Reformation period.

    Here, you have Luther and others who at the start are not opposed to Marian devotions. Later on, this seems to change as appeals to Mary and the saints are often seen as being practices that easily lead to idolatry and less honor being given to Jesus. I can easily say I share these concerns.

    As we get to the modern era, we start seeing different looks at Mary. There are feminist looks that think that Mary is too unrealistic for a woman to relate to. There is liberation theology that looks at her as an example of the poor standing up against the rich. While many of us would not agree with a feminist or liberation theology approach, we can agree that Mary's being a woman needs to be seriously remembered and realize that she was someone who was poor and yet gave a magnificat challenging Herod and Caesar.

    Perry at the end gives us his own Mariology. I do think he is too quick to agree with the perpetual virginity of Mary. I don't think there's any real basis for this in the Gospels as I think it's best to treat the brothers of Jesus at face value as brothers. I also think it's important to look at Josephus's testimony here who regularly could easily differentiate between cousins and brothers.

    He is open to praying to Mary and treating her as a sort of co-redeemer, though I still am suspicious of each of these. I do get concerned about trying to contact those on the other side of the curtain as it were since I don't see this as a recommended practice in Scripture. I think Perry would probably agree with me that if this cannot be done in good conscience by a Christian, then it should not be done.

    This is a good book to read on the importance of understanding Mary. Whether one agrees or disagrees, they will walk away with a greater appreciation of Mary. While we have many disagreements between us, Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox should all agree that Mary is certainly a very important woman in salvation history and be thankful for what she did for us in being the mother of our Lord.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    I haven't read this book, but I have a couple comments.
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Mark presents Mary in a section alongside of Jesus's opponents where she and the family are well-meaning opponents, but still acting as opponents.
    I think you're misreading this. Jesus is seizing a teaching opportunity here, not condemning any particular action.
    If all we had was John, we wouldn't even know Mary's name.
    This is a pretty weak argument. It is well understood that John was writing last, and very likely knew of at least some of the others. And we don't even know the name of the disciple Jesus loved from the text, but that in no way means the person was unimportant.
    Going through church history, we start with the early fathers and see the impact of the Protoevangelium of James on the early church. Many did believe it to be a true report, though thankfully some were skeptical. At times, it looks like the early church decided to fill in some missing gaps (Much like many of think needs to be done with the childhood of Jesus) and those explanations can be seen as accurate not because they're shown to be, but because they're thought to be fitting of what God would do.
    Um, have you read the Protevangelion and the infancy gospels? They're not all that similar. This seems supiciously like rejection of the source as non-apostolic, and therefore fiction.
    I do get concerned about trying to contact those on the other side of the curtain as it were since I don't see this as a recommended practice in Scripture.
    As noted elsewhere, I disagree with your solo scriptura stance on this.
    I think Perry would probably agree with me that if this cannot be done in good conscience by a Christian, then it should not be done.
    If you think it is wrong, you shouldn't do it. Paul says much the same about eating meat.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I haven't read this book, but I have a couple comments.
      I think you're misreading this. Jesus is seizing a teaching opportunity here, not condemning any particular action.
      I'm not stating my point here. I'm stating what Perry says.

      This is a pretty weak argument. It is well understood that John was writing last, and very likely knew of at least some of the others. And we don't even know the name of the disciple Jesus loved from the text, but that in no way means the person was unimportant.
      Nor am I saying Mary is unimportant. I just read that and thought it was interesting and I had never considered it before.

      Um, have you read the Protevangelion and the infancy gospels? They're not all that similar. This seems supiciously like rejection of the source as non-apostolic, and therefore fiction.
      Been working on the Protoevangelium lately. I don't think it's at all historical, but it is different from the infancy Gospels still. The question is was the protoevangelium written to be seen as history? (Even if it was, I have no reason to think it is history)

      As noted elsewhere, I disagree with your solo scriptura stance on this.
      I also see statements in Scripture about trying to reach across the curtain and the trouble with the witch at Endor and such. The silence is telling to me.

      If you think it is wrong, you shouldn't do it. Paul says much the same about eating meat.
      Agreed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        I'm not stating my point here. I'm stating what Perry says.
        Ok. I still think it is a misreading.
        Nor am I saying Mary is unimportant. I just read that and thought it was interesting and I had never considered it before.
        ...which changes, what, exactly? It's still not a good argument.
        Been working on the Protoevangelium lately. I don't think it's at all historical, but it is different from the infancy Gospels still. The question is was the protoevangelium written to be seen as history? (Even if it was, I have no reason to think it is history)
        Ok.
        I also see statements in Scripture about trying to reach across the curtain and the trouble with the witch at Endor and such. The silence is telling to me.
        The episode of the witch at Endor is very, very different than prayer to the saints. I'm not sure what else you're referring to; I have a vague recollection of something like that, but am not finding it.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          What is the passage in Mark to which you allude?
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

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          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            What is the passage in Mark to which you allude?
            Mark 3:31-35
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Ok. I still think it is a misreading.
              I will be asking him about it if I get to interview him. It might not happen. He's got a loved one in the hospital now so he warned me he might have to cancel.

              ...which changes, what, exactly? It's still not a good argument.
              Nothing. Not really trying to argue a point. I thought it was interesting and Perry would certainly agree that just because Mary isn't talked about much doesn't mean she's not important.

              The episode of the witch at Endor is very, very different than prayer to the saints. I'm not sure what else you're referring to; I have a vague recollection of something like that, but am not finding it.
              I still see it as a way of trying to interact with the dead. I have no problem with dead saints praying for us. I think they'll do that anyway. I just don't see a basis for thinking we pray to them and I don't see any early tradition for that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Mark 3:31-35
                Thanks.

                When the context back to 3:21 is considered, I do believe they could be viewed as "well-meaning opponents."
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                  I still see it as a way of trying to interact with the dead.
                  One involves summoning a departed spirit by necromancy and witchcraft, the other is petitioning those in Heaven to pray for us. There's no comparison.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    One involves summoning a departed spirit by necromancy and witchcraft, the other is petitioning those in Heaven to pray for us. There's no comparison.
                    Well... There IS the very comparison that he mentioned: Attempting to communicate with departed spirits. You note a significant difference, but that does not mean there is NO comparison.

                    Those of us looking at it from a Protestant perspective see that the only examples in Scripture of contacting departed spirits seems to be negative, i.e. via mediums and necromancers. Praying to them, or soliciting them to pray on our behalf, as far as we can tell is neither forbidden nor encouraged.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Well... There IS the very comparison that he mentioned: Attempting to communicate with departed spirits. You note a significant difference, but that does not mean there is NO comparison.

                      Those of us looking at it from a Protestant perspective see that the only examples in Scripture of contacting departed spirits seems to be negative, i.e. via mediums and necromancers. Praying to them, or soliciting them to pray on our behalf, as far as we can tell is neither forbidden nor encouraged.
                      When I pray to a saint, I'm not expecting them to talk back.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This all assumes a conscious intermediate state, which I don't think Scripture conclusively teaches (Daniel 12:2 in particular lends strong support to the possibility of soul sleep, though I'm aware of passages that lend support to the opposite conclusion, like Revelation 6:9-11).
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          ....…
                          Perry also works on sticking with what the sources say and presenting differing viewpoints where relevant. We could say that for Protestants, usually Mary shows up at Christmas and then is rushed off of the scene so we can move on to other aspects of the life of Jesus. This could be the case for the Gospels. Mark presents Mary in a section alongside of Jesus's opponents where she and the family are well-meaning opponents, but still acting as opponents. If all we had was John, we wouldn't even know Mary's name.
                          “If all we had was” St Paul, we would know virtually nothing about the Earthly Life of Christ, and nothing about His Preaching. There is a great deal that we are told, but by sacred authors other than St Paul. So this approach is no argument against the importance the NT as a whole gives the BVM. She is part of the Divine Purpose from Gen. 3.15:

                          “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

                          ”Her seed” is, in a pre-eminent sense, Christ Himself; but the woman whose Seed Christ is, is part of that verse, no less than He is. Any interpretation of the verse that allows it to have that evangelical, Christological, fuller sense, has to allow that she too is part of God’s purpose. The (erroneous) Vulgate reading “ipsa [conteret]” is unnecessary for making this point. If the BVM is hinted at in the OT, then no reader of Scripture should shy away from these hints. The NT has more to say about her than appears by counting explicit references to her - for example, the words “All generations shall call me blessed” echo Psalm 72.17:

                          17May his name endure forever; may it continue as long as the sun.
                          Then all nations will be blessed through him, [Or will use his name in blessings (see Gen. 48:20)]
                          and they will call him blessed.”

                          https://biblehub.com/psalms/72-17.htm

                          These words apply properly to the King who is the son of David, and are fully verified in the Messiah. Yet St Luke, writing under Divine inspiration, applies part of the verse to the BVM. That application is striking, to say the least, and if all Scripture is a work of God’s Wisdom, it cannot be insignificant; it must have a purpose. There are no “accidents” in Scripture - the words used by the human authors, regardless of what those may be, are the words the Divine Author of all Scripture intended, regardless of the difficulties. Words that fully and best apply to the Messiah, are here in St Luke 1.48 applied to His mother for a reason.




                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-19-2018, 06:15 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            This all assumes a conscious intermediate state, which I don't think Scripture conclusively teaches (Daniel 12:2 in particular lends strong support to the possibility of soul sleep, though I'm aware of passages that lend support to the opposite conclusion, like Revelation 6:9-11).
                            I would think that Heb. 11-12:1 would pretty much rule out soul sleep. Daniel 12:2 merely uses sleep as a euphemism for death; it's hardly "strong support."
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                              “If all we ha[FONT=arial]d was” St Paul, we would know virtually nothing about the Earthly Life of Christ, and nothing about His Preaching.
                              Not really a fair comparison since the Gospels are largely biographical in nature and Paul's Epistles are not.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

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