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  • #46
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Sparko is pretty cool. And I agree not everyone will have the means or motivations to do that.

    As for what governments can do, its you guys who keep telling me that the government don't owe anything to nobody. The closing of coal mines has led to tragedy for a lot of workers. Don't think I don't understand that. I do. But it was inevitable.
    I don't think we said THAT. But regardless they sure don't owe shutting down a profitable business and putting people out of work. If coal mining went out of business naturally that would be one thing. But the government regulations shut them down. Not just because nobody would buy coal because of regulations but actively shut them down.

    I'm more curious as to why the coal workers didn't anticipate that. See the end coming in a few decades and work towards developing new industries. Even the Arabs know that they won't have the oil as a source of income forever, and are slowly building up an industry.

    Did they really think that they would be pulling coal out of the ground until the end of time?
    The coal didn't run out. The market didn't dry up. Heck China alone would buy up all our coal if we were allowed to mine it. Coal can be used for other things than just burning too.

    And there is nothing else THERE in Appalachia. Coal and trees. And they don't allow foresting either. The coal in Appalachia would probably last another 1000 years.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I don't think we said THAT.
      Alright.

      But regardless they sure don't owe shutting down a profitable business and putting people out of work. If coal mining went out of business naturally that would be one thing. But the government regulations shut them down. Not just because nobody would buy coal because of regulations but actively shut them down.
      I think there's a typo in here. I've bolded it. You seem to be saying that you'd think it was fine that an industry became non-competitive because of regulations.

      Did Obama actually order a business to shut down? The EPA creating common sense regulations for the task of controlling polution seems perfectly natural. If these regulations means coal becomes non-competitive, then what's wrong with that?

      I mean I don't think Obama ordered the mines to shut down. You might know more about it than I do. I thought the EPA just placed restrictions on coal power plants like how much sulfur and NOX they could release. And thinkg like fly ash sludge basin regulations, following disasters where a company had cheaped out (like all companies systematically do unless forced to do otherwise) and not done any reinforcement work to a bassin that was right next to a river. And then they had a spill and thousand, upon thousands of tons of toxic sludge pretty much killed the entire eco system of a river.

      I didn't know a president of the United States could just order a company to stop doing business? All I can find are just the EPA putting common sense regulations in place.

      But why is that a problem Sparko? The regulations are rolled back. So... where's the coal? Why aren't the mines reopening. If coal is super cheap, easily competitive with gas etc... where's the business boom? What's stopping it?

      The coal didn't run out. The market didn't dry up. Heck China alone would buy up all our coal if we were allowed to mine it. Coal can be used for other things than just burning too.
      We're also far away from actually running out of oil. In principle there's oil for centuries. The problem is that the remaining oil is ever more expensive to extract. And of course power production from oil is messy and pollutes a lot. Though not as much as coal.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Scottish Power says today that it has sold off all its gas and coal power stations and is generating 100% wind power. The first power company in the UK to do that. That’s the direction of travel and things are moving quicker all the time.
        So who bought them and what are these buyers doing with them?
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Alright.



          I think there's a typo in here. I've bolded it.

          Did Obama actually order a business to shut down? The EPA creating common sense regulations for the task of controlling polution seems perfectly natural. If these regulations means coal becomes non-competitive, then what's wrong with that?
          words out of order. Obama and the EPA created regulations that actively put coal mines out of business by making it too expensive to stay open. And they kept piling them on till they closed. It was an active attack. I lived in appalachia for a while, it is some of the cleanest land and water you have ever seen. wildlife everywhere. This was before any regulations. The only thing that damaged the land was strip mining which was very regulated and had to restore the land after mining. The regulations put in place were not necessary but were over the top harmful to the mines.

          I mean I don't think Obama ordered the mines to shut down. You might know more about it than I do. I thought the EPA just placed restrictions on coal power plants like how much sulfur and NOX they could release. And thinkg like fly ash sludge basin regulations, following disasters where a company had cheaped out (like all companies systematically do unless forced to do otherwise) and not done any reinforcement work to a bassin that was right next to a river. And then they had a spill and thousand, upon thousands of tons of toxic sludge pretty much killed the entire eco system of a river.
          That and regulations about mining too. here is an article about it:

          https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...s-targeting-c/

          But why is that a problem Sparko? The regulations are rolled back. So... where's the coal? Why aren't the mines reopening. If coal is super cheap, easily competitive with gas etc... where's the business boom? What's stopping it?
          you know how hard it is to start up an industry that was gutted? People are gun shy too. What happens when the next president comes in? And many of the coal mine owners and operators have moved on to other pursuits, leaving the miners in poverty without jobs or pensions.


          We're also far away from actually running out of oil. In principle there's oil for centuries. The problem is that the remaining oil is ever more expensive to extract. And of course power production from oil is messy and pollutes a lot. Though not as much as coal.
          You won't see them shutting down the oil fields.
          Last edited by Sparko; 10-17-2018, 02:12 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            words out of order. Obama and the EPA created regulations that actively put coal mines out of business by making it too expensive to stay open. And they kept piling them on till they closed. It was an active attack. I lived in appalachia for a while, it is some of the cleanest land and water you have ever seen. wildlife everywhere. This was before any regulations. The only thing that damaged the land was strip mining which was very regulated and had to restore the land after mining. The regulations put in place were not necessary but were over the top harmful to the mines.
            Thanks.

            I can't personally see it as a direct attack. There isn't a single regulation that I've seen proposed and accepted that seemed overkill. Especially not that about toxic fly ash spills, which is a recurring problem. Cow Poke also told me about the strip mines being turned into parks. I admit I'm a bit skeptical on that, and I love to see an independent review of how well they've done.

            That and regulations about mining too.
            I only know the regulations about the power plants, those seemed to make perfect sense to me. Do you have any example of a regulation put in place on mining that was draconian? I'm not being facetious here, I'm honestly just curious, because you have a different take on it than I do.

            you know how hard it is to start up an industry that was gutted? People are gun shy too. What happens when the next president comes in? And many of the coal mine owners and operators have moved on to other pursuits, leaving the miners in poverty without jobs or pensions.
            I'm sorry for the coal miners. I hope they move on to other jobs. The coal industry was instrumental in helping humanity and making the west rich. However I'm not sad at seeing it die, its polluting too much. I don't think its environmentally responsible to burn coal anymore.

            You won't see them shutting down the oil fields.
            I expect oil fields to die off gracefully, as current fields shut down naturally, and as fewer rigs are put up in the future. We've hit peak oil. The rate at which we're pumping out of the ground will never be matched again.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Thanks.

              I can't personally see it as a direct attack. There isn't a single regulation that I've seen proposed and accepted that seemed overkill. Especially not that about toxic fly ash spills, which is a recurring problem. Cow Poke also told me about the strip mines being turned into parks. I admit I'm a bit skeptical on that, and I love to see an independent review of how well they've done.
              I edited my post above. you probably missed it. Here is an example of what I was talking about.

              https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...s-targeting-c/

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I edited my post above. you probably missed it. Here is an example of what I was talking about.

                https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...s-targeting-c/
                It doesn't say much other than some regulations to protect rivers. I'm sorta suspicious when what the regulation isn't posted. I mean some of the regulations were to prevent something like this from happening. Or from states having the right to just wave away issues for the coal industry, or let them get away with raising heavy metal concentrations in the water.

                Sparko just comment on this.

                What you're looking at right there is a two billion dollar disaster brought about by a fly ash spill. So... should the coal industry pay for that one? Or is that for the government to pay for on behalf of the coal industry?

                This environmental disaster will never be fully fixed. That river will remain somewhat polluted until Christ returns. Is that okay?

                Last edited by Leonhard; 10-17-2018, 02:28 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  So who bought them and what are these buyers doing with them?
                  Drax. The UK is closing all coal fired power stations by 2025.
                  China is expected to hold 40% of the world’s solar power capacity by 2023.
                  Meanwhile, Trump still thinks it’s a hoax.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Drax. The UK is closing all coal fired power stations by 2025.
                    China is expected to hold 40% of the world’s solar power capacity by 2023.
                    Meanwhile, Trump still thinks it’s a hoax.
                    The other day he confirmed that "it's happening", but I think disputes that it's man-caused.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      The other day he confirmed that "it's happening", but I think disputes that it's man-caused.
                      The other day, the administration released a report arguing that the worst case environmentalist scenarios were true, so we might as well deregulate everything anyway since there's nothing that can be done. So they do think it's happening, they just don't care.

                      https://newrepublic.com/minutes/1514...nt-try-stop-it
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        The other day, the administration released a report arguing that the worst case environmentalist scenarios were true, so we might as well deregulate everything anyway since there's nothing that can be done. So they do think it's happening, they just don't care.

                        https://newrepublic.com/minutes/1514...nt-try-stop-it
                        Well, yeah, that was the OTHER day.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          I certainly do believe what God has said before what any man has said.
                          And if you are wrong? The climate scientists have evidence on their side, you do not.

                          You can believe in the myth of climate change caused by man all you want, but God said, "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease", way back in Genesis 8:22, so I trust that He won't allow this earth to be destroyed until he does it with fire. He said that in 2 Peter 3:10.
                          Why would I believe that nonsense, especially when the planet is at risk and my grandchildren will be the ones paying the price? "That humans are causing global warming is the position of the Academies of Science from 80 countries plus many scientific organizations that study climate science. More specifically, around 95% of active climate researchers actively publishing climate papers endorse the consensus position". Why would they lie?

                          "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up."
                          Oh well that's convincing. You should forward these findings to the various Academies of Science around the world that have good reason to think you are wrong to base your thinking on a book of folk lore and mythology rather than convincing scientific research.

                          I am not worried about climate change.
                          You can afford to be complacent because it will not affect you; it will greatly affect your grandchildren.

                          But you should be worried about the Day of the Lord. Because He IS coming, and He is coming in judgment.
                          No he's not, he's dead and buried just as you and I will be one day.
                          Last edited by Tassman; 10-17-2018, 08:48 PM.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            And if you are wrong? The climate scientists have evidence on their side, you do not.
                            I don't believe science is always right. And I believe that often the evidence is skewed to say what they want you and other gullible people to believe for their own benefit.



                            Why would I believe that nonsense, especially when the planet is at risk and my grandchildren will be the ones paying the price? "That humans are causing global warming is the position of the Academies of Science from 80 countries plus many scientific organizations that study climate science. More specifically, around 95% of active climate researchers actively publishing climate papers endorse the consensus position". Why would they lie?
                            Why would I believe scientific nonsense? Scientists lie and change their stories. God doesn't. And many, many scientists believe that AGW is not a settled science. But they are forced out of jobs and ridiculed by people like you.



                            Oh well that's convincing. You should forward these findings to the various Academies of Science around the world that have good reason to think you are wrong to base your thinking on a book of folk lore and mythology rather than convincing scientific research.
                            Science has no more meaning in my mind than God's word has in yours. You believe in the myth of AGW with no more evidence than the so-called scientists who claimed 40 or so years ago that the world would be so crowded with people that we'd only have a square foot each to stand on. I guess that's still true, huh?


                            You can afford to be complacent because it will not affect you; it will greatly affect your grandchildren.
                            I AM looking at the big picture and into the future. I care more about my and my grandchild's eternal fate than this transient earthly existence. Too bad this is YOUR best life now. It's not mine.



                            No he's not, he's dead and buried just as you and I will be one day.
                            Repent, Tassy. Because when YOU are dead and buried it will be too late for you, and the living God will be your judge. And you won't care much about this earth then.

                            I will be alive eternally in the presence of my Lord Jesus.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I certainly do believe what God has said before what any man has said.

                              You can believe in the myth of climate change caused by man all you want, but God said, "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease", way back in Genesis 8:22, so I trust that He won't allow this earth to be destroyed until he does it with fire. He said that in 2 Peter 3:10.
                              I'm confused. How does that verse in any way go against the idea of climate change caused by humans?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                                I'm confused. How does that verse in any way go against the idea of climate change caused by humans?
                                It means that man can't destroy the earth by using fossil fuels or hairspray. It means that God will sustain His creation until He decides to destroy it Himself.


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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