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  • #76
    So the Tax cut from Trump is evil and is causing the deficit to go up?

    What do you guys think of Kamela Harris' plan?

    Kamala Harris proposes big new middle-class tax break

    Sen. Kamala Harris, a potential 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, today proposed a big new tax break for average Americans.

    The California Democrat wants to create a new $6,000 tax credit for families earning up to $100,000. The break would be “refundable,” which means people could claim it even if it exceeded their tax liabilities, by receiving a check from the government for the difference.

    She wants to allow recipients to claim it throughout the year, up to $500 per month, rather than having to wait to get a lump sum after they file their taxes.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...x-break-913131

    To me this is pretty much the same thing as a tax cut, with the exception that you can claim more than you actually paid in, meaning a negative tax burden and negative income to the Treasury.

    But I bet liberals are all for this plan and don't think it will drive up the deficit.
    Last edited by Sparko; 10-19-2018, 01:21 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So the Tax cut from Trump is evil and is causing the deficit to go up?

      What do you guys think of Kamela Harris' plan?

      Kamala Harris proposes big new middle-class tax break

      Sen. Kamala Harris, D-Calif., is proposing a new tax credit of up to $500 a month, or $6,000 a year, for families earning less than $100,000 a year -- as Democrats search for a counter-message to President Trump’s tax cuts ahead of the November midterms and the 2020 presidential election.

      Harris, who is widely seen as a likely 2020 Democratic presidential contender, is proposing legislation that would offer $6,000 to families earning under $100,000 a year, and $3,000 a year for single filers earning under $50,000.

      The twist on Harris’ proposal is that the money could be accessed either at the end of the year, or in monthly chunks of up to $500 a month. Harris’ office cited a survey that said a majority of Americans don’t have enough cash on hand to cover an unexpected expense like a rent increase or a medical bill.

      https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...x-break-913131

      To me this is pretty much the same thing as a tax cut, with the exception that you can claim more than you actually paid in, meaning a negative tax burden and negative income to the Treasury.

      But I bet liberals are all for this plan and don't think it will drive up the deficit.
      I cannot speak for liberals. I think the idea of reducing the tax burden on those below $100K would be a good thing, but only if it is balanced with either a tax hike on the top earners, or compensating spending cuts. I personally think we should go for a constitutional amendment requiring a balanced budget (possibly with exceptions for a recession).

      As for negative tax burden, some of the poorest of our country are already receiving benefits and services, which is essentially the same thing. I know about the concept of a universal income, and some of the studies that have been done on it, but I frankly don't have an opinion on it. I need more data to form that opinion.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I cannot speak for liberals. I think the idea of reducing the tax burden on those below $100K would be a good thing, but only if it is balanced with either a tax hike on the top earners, or compensating spending cuts. I personally think we should go for a constitutional amendment requiring a balanced budget (possibly with exceptions for a recession).

        As for negative tax burden, some of the poorest of our country are already receiving benefits and services, which is essentially the same thing. I know about the concept of a universal income, and some of the studies that have been done on it, but I frankly don't have an opinion on it. I need more data to form that opinion.
        So how is this not the same as Trump's tax cut for the middle class which liberals are screaming about is raising the deficit? This would make it so that the middle class not only wouldn't have to pay tax, but could actually get money back! It would not only reduce the tax revenue gained, but would actually COST the government money they didn't raise. If you just charge the rich to "make up for it" all you are doing is stealing from peter to pay paul and still not lowering the deficit. It is a worse plan than Trump's. At least with Trump, he is just reducing the amount paid in, not actually paying money out.

        Hey I am all for it, if I don't have to pay taxes and get money back! But for some liberals to say this is a good idea while complaining how Trump's tax cut is hurting the country and raising the deficit is hypocritical.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          The real problem is that we do not know to make an argument either way. Last I checked (and that was within the last year), the Department of Defense was the only cabinet-level position that has never have a comprehensive audit. At the end of the day, we have only fragmentary information about where the money is going and how it is being spent. So the hawks who say "need more money" cannot substantiate that position - and the dove's who say "too much is being spent" have little/no basis for that position either.

          Personally, I think the DoD should not see another penny of increase to their funding, nor a penny of decrease, until there is a comprehensive audit of the entire establishment. Once that is done, we will know whether we should be looking at an increase or a decrease (or level funding).
          It would be my guess there are very good reasons for a lack of an audit, though I can understand that can create suspicions. The problem is, there are a lot of things money is spent on that can't be discussed outside the need to know set of individuals. I like the line from ID4 when asked where the money came for the research on the Alien ship - "You don't think they really paid $1000 for a toilet seat do you?" (Approximate rendering based on memory). But the reality is, you can't audit DoD spending all that closely without the report itself bearing a top classification and thus being unavailable to all but a select few. So you'd just end up with broad categories with dollar amounts and no more visibility than you already have as to whether money is being wasted, squandered etc.

          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            It would be my guess there are very good reasons for a lack of an audit, though I can understand that can create suspicions. The problem is, there are a lot of things money is spent on that can't be discussed outside the need to know set of individuals. I like the line from ID4 when asked where the money came for the research on the Alien ship - "You don't think they really paid $1000 for a toilet seat do you?" (Approximate rendering based on memory). But the reality is, you can't audit DoD spending all that closely without the report itself bearing a top classification and thus being unavailable to all but a select few. So you'd just end up with broad categories with dollar amounts and no more visibility than you already have as to whether money is being wasted, squandered etc.

            Jim
            Sorry, Jim - but I simply don't buy it. An audit doesn't mean that the information has to be made public to the entire nation. But it CAN and SHOULD be reviewed and checked by the people we elect to office in Congress. If the military is beyond oversight and accountability, then we have a VERY serious problem.

            There are mechanisms for giving people security clearances all the way to the White House level. There are auditors in every other segment of the government, except this one. Every attempt to be comprehensively audited has been resisted and essentially defeated. The "I'd tell you but I'd have to kill you" defense doesn't square with me. The second largest slice of our federal budget should be accounted for.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So how is this not the same as Trump's tax cut for the middle class which liberals are screaming about is raising the deficit?
              First, the GOP tax cut was not for the middle class. It was primarily for the very wealthy, with a bone tossed to the middle class to keep them appeased. It worked, because most of the middle class happily are chewing on their bone, ignoring the fact that the steak went to the very wealthy. Second, the GOP tax cut was not done in a way that ensures a balanced budget. There were no corresponding spending cuts, or other forms of tax increase to balance. All that was given was a vague promise that the growing economy would counter balance - and here we sit with an almost 800B deficit (and growing).

              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              This would make it so that the middle class not only wouldn't have to pay tax, but could actually get money back! It would not only reduce the tax revenue gained, but would actually COST the government money they didn't raise. If you just charge the rich to "make up for it" all you are doing is stealing from peter to pay paul and still not lowering the deficit. It is a worse plan than Trump's. At least with Trump, he is just reducing the amount paid in, not actually paying money out.
              I have no problem with "robbing peter to pay paul" if Peter buolt his wealth on the back of paul to begin with. And Trump/GOP did both - they cut revenue with the tax cut and then swelled spending with the following spending bill.

              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Hey I am all for it, if I don't have to pay taxes and get money back! But for some liberals to say this is a good idea while complaining how Trump's tax cut is hurting the country and raising the deficit is hypocritical.
              As I said - I do not speak for "liberals." I told you under what circumstances I would be in favor of it. They were clearly "that it be deficit-neutral."
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                What makes you think that my idea of "bare minimum" doesn't include a strong national defense, law enforcement, and a federally regulated free market?
                Probably these:
                Originally posted by Mountain Man
                I would love more than anything to see the federal government stripped back to the bare minimum and leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves.
                Originally posted by Mountain Man
                We need government to provide for certain things (justice, domestic tranquility, security, etc.)
                Our government does not provide those things, it is only called upon to protect certain fundamental rights that we inherently possess.
                I suspect MM doesn't realise that the government not providing security and justice but leaving communities to take care of themselves is an absence of national defence and law enforcement.

                But what can you expect from some-one who thinks the right to trial by jury can exist without people being called to serve on juries?
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  Probably these:I suspect MM doesn't realise that the government not providing security and justice but leaving communities to take care of themselves is an absence of national defence and law enforcement.

                  But what can you expect from some-one who thinks the right to trial by jury can exist without people being called to serve on juries?
                  It would doubtless assist in your understanding of MM's position if you asked what he meant by "leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves" rather than interpreting it in the least favorable light possible. But what can you expect from someone who's only interested in playing 'gotcha'?
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    It would doubtless assist in your understanding of MM's position if you asked what he meant by "leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves" rather than interpreting it in the least favorable light possible. But what can you expect from someone who's only interested in playing 'gotcha'?
                    I have never noticed Roy "only interested in playing 'gotcha'". And the caustic nature of MM's replies tends to poison the potential for reasoned discussion on any point for which there might be some subtlety not immediately obvious.

                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-22-2018, 01:35 PM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I have never noticed Roy "only interested in playing 'gotcha'". And the caustic nature of MM's replies tends to cut of any sort of extended off the potential for reasoned discussion on any point for which there might be some subtlety not immediately obvious.

                      Jim
                      Have you not noticed the caustic nature of Roy's replies? Their regard for each other is mutual. Neither one is looking for any sort of reasoned discussion with the other.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Have you not noticed the caustic nature of Roy's replies? Their regard for each other is mutual. Neither one is looking for any sort of reasoned discussion with the other.
                        Oxmixmudd himself is about as interested in not misinterpreting MM's posts as Roy is.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Have you not noticed the caustic nature of Roy's replies? Their regard for each other is mutual. Neither one is looking for any sort of reasoned discussion with the other.
                          There is no real comparison that can be made. I have no idea how you can even in jest try to equate them.

                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Oxmixmudd himself is about as interested in not misinterpreting MM's posts as Roy is.
                            Do you have any examples of me 'misrepresenting' MM's posts?

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man
                              I don't think you entirely understand the term "beholden". The government exists to serve the people and not the other way around.
                              Go rob a bank then tell the police they work for you and they can't arrest you.
                              I can't help but think you've wandered into straw man territory with that attempt at a reductio ad absurdum.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                It would doubtless assist in your understanding of MM's position if you asked what he meant by "leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves" rather than interpreting it in the least favorable light possible.
                                I was working on the basis that he meant "leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves". If he instead meant something else (e.g. "leave it up to the states and local communities to take care of themselves except in regards to law enforcement and military defense") perhaps he should have written that something else.
                                Last edited by Roy; 10-23-2018, 07:00 AM.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

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