Originally posted by Sparko
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Federal Deficit
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes - income tax cuts...focused on the spenders. The tax cuts the Reps passed were focused on the businesses and the top earners. Business used the vast majority of the gains to pay dividends and buy back stock - all of which went to the top earners. A small fragment went to bonuses (a one time hit) and a minuscule slice went to salary increases.
If you're going to make a long-term impact on the economy - you're going predominantly cut taxes to the 99% and increase their spending power. That increases demand, and drives the economy. That did NOT happen with the last tax cut.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostI disagree. While the personal income tax cuts were only as good as Congress could make them, they were definitely impactful. But we shouldn't punish success. I really feel a flat tax would be the best solution. That and eliminating April 15th...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Naturally, with the deficit ballooning, we should go after programs that support the 99% and not those that support businesses and the 1%.
It continues to amaze me how successful the Republican party is in getting people to vote against their own best interests.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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The tax rate is mostly irrelevant. Regardless of the rate, the tax receipts ratio to GDP doesn't change much. Tax changes cause temporary aberrations, and people and corporations react to it in the way that is most beneficial to them. Over the long term it tends towards 17% or so regardless.
The only way to get to a balanced budget is to cut spending. And unfortunately both Republicans and Democrats have core spending priorities that don't overlap, so every time power changes they have to make up for what the other side supposedly took away. If you look at the historical tables (Either 1.2 or 1.3) from the government web site below, you can still see the same GDP ratio for times when the top tax rate was 90% in the 40s and 50s, down to 70% in the 60s and down to 50% and then 28% in the 80s, and floundering around 35-40% since the 90s. That's why Republican economists always try to target raising GDP over anything else, because nobody is willing to do the necessary thing which is to cut spending. (At least not since the Truman years right after WW2)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/
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Originally posted by Super Cow View PostThe tax rate is mostly irrelevant. Regardless of the rate, the tax receipts ratio to GDP doesn't change much. Tax changes cause temporary aberrations, and people and corporations react to it in the way that is most beneficial to them. Over the long term it tends towards 17% or so regardless.
The only way to get to a balanced budget is to cut spending. And unfortunately both Republicans and Democrats have core spending priorities that don't overlap, so every time power changes they have to make up for what the other side supposedly took away. If you look at the historical tables (Either 1.2 or 1.3) from the government web site below, you can still see the same GDP ratio for times when the top tax rate was 90% in the 40s and 50s, down to 70% in the 60s and down to 50% and then 28% in the 80s, and floundering around 35-40% since the 90s. That's why Republican economists always try to target raising GDP over anything else, because nobody is willing to do the necessary thing which is to cut spending. (At least not since the Truman years right after WW2)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo, the numbers continue to show that the federal deficit is ballooning. In 2009, the deficit ballooned - but we were in the grips of the worst recession since the Great Depression. Now we are in economic good times. The economy is humming. So can anyone explain why the deficit is ballooning. Could it possibly have anything to do with the Tax Cut plan...? What on earth happened to "fiscal responsibility?
Unfortunately, I don't see anyone as actually willing to take the necessary measures to eliminate the deficit, so we're probably going to get some diabetes in our future (metaphorically).
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI feel the deficit is like being obese. It's something it seems almost everyone agrees is a bad thing and should be fixed, but much like how losing weight requires some painful concessions to accomplish (eating less, exercising more), the actual things required to knock down the deficit (cutting spending, raising taxes) tend to be unpopular, so both Democrats and Republicans shy away from actually doing things to fix the problem (of course, Republicans are the ones currently in power and therefore more deserving of current blame).
Unfortunately, I don't see anyone as actually willing to take the necessary measures to eliminate the deficit, so we're probably going to get some diabetes in our future (metaphorically).The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt continues to amaze me how successfulthe Republican party isboth parties are in getting people to vote against their own best interests.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNaturally, with the deficit ballooning, we should go after programs that support the 99% and not those that support businesses and the 1%.
It continues to amaze me how successful the Republican party is in getting people to vote against their own best interests.
But if we want a balanced budget, some cuts will need to be made on spending of tax dollars. Either military, or welfare programs, or infrastructure. None will be popular. But there is also a lot of pork projects out there that can be cut too. like art projects, paying farmers not to grow things and the like.
here is a site dedicated to calling out pork
https://www.cagw.org/reporting/2017-hall-of-shame
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI think that's probably more accurate.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt would seem that our President is neither ignorant nor naive.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNot really. The Democratic party is definitely guilty of being beholden to big money in the same way the Republican party is. But they tend to get behind programs that support the 99% rather than those that support the 1%.
On that point, we emphatically disagree.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWell social security is paid for by the workers, so it is not tax funded. Cutting that is just stealing money from people who paid into it all their lives. That won't fly.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut if we want a balanced budget, some cuts will need to be made on spending of tax dollars. Either military, or welfare programs, or infrastructure. None will be popular. But there is also a lot of pork projects out there that can be cut too. like art projects, paying farmers not to grow things and the like.
Originally posted by Sparko View Posthere is a site dedicated to calling out pork: https://www.cagw.org/reporting/2017-hall-of-shame
I can't do much with the site you linked. Adding it all up gets the number $1.5B, most of which is one program (the tank) and it goes back in some cases to 1992, so it's not an annual number. Even if all of this money was spent in 2018 (which it wasn't), eliminating this pork reduces the deficit from $779B to $777.5B. More likely it doesn't even drop it a couple hundred million. Chump change.
As you note, Soc Sec is a reasonably closed system (or its supposed to be). If we take that out of the equation ($870B), what remains is $3.563B. The deficit represents 21.8% of this number. That means every single department should see this kind of cut, if we are not willing to raise taxes and wish to balance the budget.
The math tells me that the solution needs to be a combination of both. We need to cut fat everywhere. We need to get the military audited so we can see where all that money is going and how it is being spent. We need to be smarter about how we spend our money. And we need to raise taxes to pay those things we continue to want our government to do for us. Personally, I think we should have a simple, flat tax. No deductions. No exceptions. A single per-person exemption for up to a family of 4, probably in the neighborhood of $20K/person. Then a flat tax for all income above that from any source for any person. Businesses should be tax free because the profits from these businesses will either be used to build the business, or they will be distributed to owners as dividends and will be taxed then. All capital gains should be considered "income" and taxed at the same flat rate. And that flat rate should be set, annually, to cover the cost of the federal budget and begin paying down the debt.
My $.02.
ETA: and we need to change SocSec to function as an individual retirement savings program, so that each individual gets out what they pay in with reasonable interest/gains. THAT will require a one-time massive infusion which will swell the debt - once.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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