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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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All will repent?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, so we may hope that the wicked may repent after death?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    We may hope, sure. Does that mean it will necessarily happen?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      I think it's quite Scriptural:

      "Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ " (Eze. 33:11)

      Surely this indicates that God's purpose is that the wicked turn from their ways!

      "Let the wicked forsake their ways
      and the unrighteous their thoughts.
      Let them turn to the Lord..." (Isa. 55:7)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      You've presented a passage that show that God always accomplishes his purposes (Isa. 55:10-11). You've also presented a passage that shows that God desires that all people repent from their wicked ways (Eze 33:11).

      What you haven't established yet, is that it actually is God's purpose that everyone repents. Desire is not the same thing as purpose.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Yes, so we may hope that the wicked may repent after death?

        Blessings,
        Lee
        Is there any scriptural basis for the belief there will be forgiveness for sins if you repent after death?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I think it's quite Scriptural:

          "Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ " (Eze. 33:11)

          Surely this indicates that God's purpose is that the wicked turn from their ways!

          "Let the wicked forsake their ways
          and the unrighteous their thoughts.
          Let them turn to the Lord..." (Isa. 55:7)

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Your big assumption, which I pointed out before, is that God's pleasure is necessarily his purpose. That many wicked die without repenting puts that equation in serious question.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            I think it's quite Scriptural:

            "Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ " (Eze. 33:11)

            Surely this indicates that God's purpose is that the wicked turn from their ways!

            "Let the wicked forsake their ways
            and the unrighteous their thoughts.
            Let them turn to the Lord..." (Isa. 55:7)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            The Eze 33:11 verse may be addressing those people who would be saved yet were happy to see the wicked judged. Also, there could be people who think that
            fate was under control against them being saved by God, but God's message was that God is control rather than fate having control.

            The Isa 55:7 passage appears as a command can be viewed as an instruction to the wicked who will heed this instruction: "you may recognize that you are wicked and unworthy, but I, the Lord, am offering you a way (through Christ), to come to God and be made righteous. So turn to the Lord."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              We may hope, sure. Does that mean it will necessarily happen?
              Well, I sign up for soft universalism, which is the hope that all will repent, as opposed to hard universalism, which states that all will surely repent.

              Originally posted by Chrawnus
              You've presented a passage that show that God always accomplishes his purposes (Isa. 55:10-11). You've also presented a passage that shows that God desires that all people repent from their wicked ways (Eze 33:11).

              What you haven't established yet, is that it actually is God's purpose that everyone repents. Desire is not the same thing as purpose.
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig
              Your big assumption, which I pointed out before, is that God's pleasure is necessarily his purpose.
              "Repent and live!" seems to show God's purpose pretty clearly. Repent so that (the purpose) you will live.

              And even God's desires are said to all be fulfilled:

              Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
              And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’. (Is 46:10)

              "All my good pleasure", all of God's desires are fulfilled.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Last edited by lee_merrill; 10-17-2018, 04:57 PM.
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Is there any scriptural basis for the belief there will be forgiveness for sins if you repent after death?
                Yes, I go over some evidence here.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  The Eze 33:11 verse may be addressing those people who would be saved yet were happy to see the wicked judged. Also, there could be people who think that fate was under control against them being saved by God, but God's message was that God is control rather than fate having control.
                  Certainly God is in control, and (I believe) even in control of repentance. But surely there is more here, God's purpose being shown in the command "Repent, and live!".

                  The Isa 55:7 passage appears as a command can be viewed as an instruction to the wicked who will heed this instruction: "you may recognize that you are wicked and unworthy, but I, the Lord, am offering you a way (through Christ), to come to God and be made righteous. So turn to the Lord."
                  Though even here you make it a command, the Lord is sending his word, which does not return void, so that people may turn to him.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Well, I sign up for soft universalism, which is the hope that all will repent, as opposed to hard universalism, which states that all will surely repent.
                    Surely every Christian should have the hope that everyone would repent?

                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    "Repent and live!" seems to show God's purpose pretty clearly. Repent so that (the purpose) you will live.
                    Although I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose (heh) you're equivocating between two different meanings of the word "purpose" here. When "purpose" is used in the sense of "accomplishing all of your purposes" it means something along the sense of "plan" or "something you set out to do". In the sentence "Repent so that you will live" however, the implied "purpose" in "so that", is used in the sense of "a reason". In other words, "for what purpose should you repent?", and the reason/purpose being "in order to live".

                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    And even God's desires are said to all be fulfilled:

                    Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
                    And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’. (Is 46:10)

                    "All my good pleasure", all of God's desires are fulfilled.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    I'm not sure if "I will accomplish all My good pleasure" means anything other than that God will do whatever He wants.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      Surely every Christian should have the hope that everyone would repent?
                      me
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Aren't, e.g., "Thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" expressions of God's "desire" and/or "purpose"?

                        If so, clearly God's desire/purpose expressed via His "words" sometimes do not come to pass.

                        If they are not expressions of God's desire/purpose, then what ARE they?
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          Aren't, e.g., "Thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" expressions of God's "desire" and/or "purpose"?

                          If so, clearly God's desire/purpose expressed via His "words" sometimes do not come to pass.

                          If they are not expressions of God's desire/purpose, then what ARE they?
                          thetensuggestions.jpg
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Although I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose (heh) you're equivocating between two different meanings of the word "purpose" here. When "purpose" is used in the sense of "accomplishing all of your purposes" it means something along the sense of "plan" or "something you set out to do". In the sentence "Repent so that you will live" however, the implied "purpose" in "so that", is used in the sense of "a reason". In other words, "for what purpose should you repent?", and the reason/purpose being "in order to live".
                            No, I mean that God's purpose is so that the wicked will live, by repenting.

                            I'm not sure if "I will accomplish all My good pleasure" means anything other than that God will do whatever He wants.
                            Meaning no desire of God's will go unfulfilled? It seems that is what is implied here.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Aren't, e.g., "Thou shalt not murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" expressions of God's "desire" and/or "purpose"?

                              If so, clearly God's desire/purpose expressed via His "words" sometimes do not come to pass.

                              If they are not expressions of God's desire/purpose, then what ARE they?
                              Prophecies! If God's commands all have the purpose of obedience, and all God's words accomplish their purpose, then we may expect that eventually, no one will steal, no one will commit adultery.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                No, I mean that God's purpose is so that the wicked will live, by repenting.
                                Well, I already gathered that's what you mean. I simply don't believe you're warranted to draw that conclusion from the passages you've shown so far. That it is God's purpose that everyone who repents will live is quite clear. Whether or not everyone will repent however, is a different question altogether.

                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Meaning no desire of God's will go unfulfilled? It seems that is what is implied here.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                I don't think you can draw any further conclusions from that passage other than that whatever God desires to do, He will do. I simply can't see what kind justification you believe you have to infer from that passage that "no desire of God's will go unfulfilled". I'm not even sure what you mean by the phrase "desire of God's will".

                                Comment

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