Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

All will repent?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Prophecies! If God's commands all have the purpose of obedience, and all God's words accomplish their purpose, then we may expect that eventually, no one will steal, no one will commit adultery.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    So they fail billions of times until they finally don't.

    Ok. Interesting hermeneutical approach.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      That it is God's purpose that everyone who repents will live is quite clear. Whether or not everyone will repent however, is a different question altogether.
      Well, I draw that as a conclusion from 1) God's purpose in commanding all to repent is that all repent, and 2) God's word always accomplishes its purpose.

      I don't think you can draw any further conclusions from that passage other than that whatever God desires to do, He will do. I simply can't see what kind justification you believe you have to infer from that passage that "no desire of God's will go unfulfilled". I'm not even sure what you mean by the phrase "desire of God's will".
      I meant "none of God's desires will go unfulfilled." And "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" seems to imply that, and seems to state more than "I will do what I desire."

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        So they fail billions of times until they finally don't.
        No, "the law was brought in so that the trespass might increase" (Rom. 5:20), so first sin increases, according to God's purpose, and then then the law is fulfilled.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Well, I draw that as a conclusion from 1) God's purpose in commanding all to repent is that all repent, and 2) God's word always accomplishes its purpose.
          You're going to have to justify your first premise here. You need to establish that it is indeed God's purpose that all repent in commanding that all repent, and not merely an expression of His desire that all repent.

          For example, one counter-objection to the claim that God commanding everyone to repent so that they may live means his purpose is that everyone does repent and lives would be that God commanding everyone to repent means that his purpose is that everyone who does repent would live. In my eyes that's a far more justified conclusion to draw, and doesn't go beyond what the text itself says.

          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I meant "none of God's desires will go unfulfilled." And "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" seems to imply that, and seems to state more than "I will do what I desire."

          Blessings,
          Lee
          If you can manage to show that "none of God's desires will go unfulfilled" is what "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" means you'd be at least partially on the way to showing that everyone does repent eventually. But that also would mean that you'd have to show that "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" is a good translation of that particular part in the Bible, and just a quick glance at the different Bible translations on biblegateway.com seem to suggest that not an insignificant amount of translations agree with me on my interpretation that it simply means that God does whatever He wants to do. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right, but it does show that the issue isn't simply cut and dry.

          Then of course you will have to show that repentance after death entails forgiveness of sins, something I'm not yet convinced of after a quick glance at the evidence (which I will go through more thoroughly if I get the time) you provided me yesterday (at least it was yesterday for me, no idea if it was yesterday for you).

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            For example, one counter-objection to the claim that God commanding everyone to repent so that they may live means his purpose is that everyone does repent and lives would be that God commanding everyone to repent means that his purpose is that everyone who does repent would live.
            I would think if "repent and live!" means "if you repent, you will live", then the Lord should have said this second statement, instead of the first.

            "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth..." (Is 45:22)

            So this means "if you turn to me, you will be saved"? No, these are commands, which show God's purpose in issuing the command, repent and live, turn and be saved.

            If you can manage to show that "none of God's desires will go unfulfilled" is what "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" means you'd be at least partially on the way to showing that everyone does repent eventually. But that also would mean that you'd have to show that "I will accomplish all my good pleasure" is a good translation of that particular part in the Bible, and just a quick glance at the different Bible translations on biblegateway.com seem to suggest that not an insignificant amount of translations agree with me on my interpretation that it simply means that God does whatever He wants to do. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right, but it does show that the issue isn't simply cut and dry.
            Isaiah 46:10 ... who says, 'My plan will be realized, I will accomplish what I desire.' (NET)
            Isaiah 46:10 I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. (NIV)

            But "I do what I want to do" would hardly need saying.

            Source: Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - emphasis mine

            Purpose. (Heb. yā˓aṣ; Gk. boulē). The Old Testament. The verbal root of the Hebrew word for purpose means to give counsel, deliberate, purpose, or determine. In five passages where the noun appears, four refer to God’s purpose and one to the purpose of a person’s heart (Prov. 19:21; 20:5; Isa. 46:10–11; Jer. 32:19). God’s plans stand firm forever (Ps. 33:11); his purpose will stand (Isa. 46:10). What God intends, what he has in mind, what he purposes and plans, what he pleases—these together give the basis for a theology of history. God stands in the center of history as One who acts. He has a goal in what he does. Nothing can thwart his plan. His purpose is consistently related to what he does in the world.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #36
              If I can jump in here, how does one reconcile postmortem repentance with Hebrews 9:27? (And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.)
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                If I can jump in here, how does one reconcile postmortem repentance with Hebrews 9:27? (And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.)
                Orthodox and Roman Catholic belief distinguishes between a particular judgment (of each person at the time of death) and a general judgment (at the great white throne of Rev.). One could presumably repent between the two. It's not something I've studied much yet, though I have a couple books on my 'to read' pile dealing with it.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  But then would that mean that God's word would not accomplish its purpose?


                  Yes, so we may hope that the wicked may repent after death?

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  God’s Word always accomplishes all His purpose. He utterly forbids all sin. Yet we sin. Does it follow that His Will is not done ? Not at all ! His Will is done, either through the loving obedience of His creatures, or, despite their disobedience.

                  The classic example of this, is the Crucifixion. Nothing could be more opposed to the Will of God, than that sinful men should crucify and kill His Beloved Son. Nothing could more perfectly fulfil the Will of God, than the Self-sacrificial obedience, to the extent of dying on the Cross, of His Beloved Son. God’s Will is always fulfilled, even by our sins, not because God is pleased with wickedness, but because His Righteous Will makes even our unrighteousness and sin work against our intentions and for His. No perversity of men or demons can thwart the perfect fulfilment of His Will - their sins fulfil His Will, despite what they intend.

                  The unrepentance of the wicked is sinful, but if the Will of God is not fulfilled by our repentance - “the wicked” are us, after all - it will be fulfilled by judging us for our refusal to repent. The Mercy of God allows us to choose: we can unite our wills with His Will, or else use our wills to stand against and oppose His Will.

                  Short answer to the question: No. Our probation ends with this life. The Particular Judgement “follows”. The Saints in Heaven will not lose God, nor will the damned inherit Him.
                  Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-19-2018, 07:34 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                    No perversity of men or demons can thwart the perfect fulfilment of His Will - their sins fulfil His Will, despite what they intend.
                    Agreed!

                    The unrepentance of the wicked is sinful, but if the Will of God is not fulfilled by our repentance - “the wicked” are us, after all - it will be fulfilled by judging us for our refusal to repent. The Mercy of God allows us to choose: we can unite our wills with His Will, or else use our wills to stand against and oppose His Will.
                    Yet who can oppose God's will successfully?


                    Then Job answered the Lord and said, "I know that You can do all things,
                    And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:1–2)

                    Short answer to the question: No. Our probation ends with this life. The Particular Judgement “follows”.
                    "After [death], the judgment" (Heb. 9:27), which would consign people to hell? But could they then still repent?

                    So then I ask again, which is it?

                    God's purpose in commanding all to repent, is not that all repent.

                    God's word does not always accomplish its purpose.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment

                    widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                    Working...
                    X