Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

I Wish The Elephants Had Trampled...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Secular Israel is no better than secular any other country.
    Israel is the Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, hence it is reasonable to assume that its laws reflect Jewish values...including those on abortion, which is totally legal in Israel.

    And just because something is the law of the land doesn't make it right or good. Why are you so dim that you can't see that?
    Why are you so arrogant that you assume your opinion of what’s “right or good” is the only definitive one? It’s a complex issue.

    As rogue said, the word of God is my final authority
    Your understanding of biblical “final authority” differs on abortion from that of 4,000 years of Jewish tradition and that of many Christians...including Evangelicals until relatively recently.

    and I don't care what you or any other man says.
    This is the problem with religious extremists.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #17
      The folks at my Jewish Learning are anything but experts of ancient Jewish practices and Flavius Josephus as well as works like the Pseudo-Phocylides, Sibylline Oracles and even the Didache (which was Jewish Christian) contradict their assessments.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        The folks at my Jewish Learning are anything but experts of ancient Jewish practices and Flavius Josephus as well as works like the Pseudo-Phocylides, Sibylline Oracles and even the Didache (which was Jewish Christian) contradict their assessments.
        The bottom line is that none of the Jewish traditions share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception. Nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings until the head or the majority of the body is birthed.

        https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/abortion
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          The bottom line is that none of the Jewish traditions share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception. Nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings until the head or the majority of the body is birthed.

          https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/abortion

          Partial birth abortion has been legal in Canada for decades. How can you possibly justify the killing of a child in the process of being born as long as the head is still in the birth canal?

          Do you not see how absolutely vile and wicked that is?

          And, again, who cares what Jewish tradition says? Their traditions over the centuries have turned them away from God and promoted them to reject their Messiah.

          Where is Charles in this thread to nanny you about "whataboutism"?


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            The bottom line is that none of the Jewish traditions share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception. Nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings until the head or the majority of the body is birthed.

            https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/abortion
            The bottom line was that the "pro-choice" movement would have been viewed as nothing less than an abomination. For just one example, the Jewish Christian Didache (a.k.a., The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) which is commonly accepted as dating from the 1st cent. makes it crystal clear:

            And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born."


            They place abortion squarely in with other such gross violations of the natural and moral law as such acts as murder, infanticide, pederasty and stealing. It is impossible to envision the anonymous author of the Didache proclaiming that while he is personally opposed to abortion he thinks it ought to be up to the mother to decide if she wants to kill this unborn baby any more than they would have said the same about the murder of anyone else.

            And the Didache is not the only first century example of opposition of abortion from Jews and Christians we have. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' defense of Judaism, Contra Apionem ("Against Apion") also spells it out:

            "The law moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring: and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten; or to destroy it afterward. And if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child; by destroying a living creature, and diminishing human kind."


            And prior to Josephus we have passages from manuscripts like the 1st-2nd century B.C. Sibylline Oracles:

            "The godless furthermore shall to all ages perish, all who did evils aforetime, and committed murders, And all who are accomplices therein, ... All who caused abortions, and all who their offspring cast unlawfully away."


            Shortly after that we can read in Pseudo-Phocylides:

            "Do not let a woman destroy the unborn babe in her belly, nor after its birth throw it before the dogs and the vultures as a prey."


            Note the recurring theme? Killing an unborn baby was seen as no different than murdering a young child. Both were heinous crimes.

            But let's continue forward.

            In the 2nd century Apocalypse of Peter we read:

            "And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion."


            From the same time we have the Epistle of Barnabas which succinctly states:

            You shall not kill either the fetus by abortion or the new born


            Also around the same time, we have the Early Church Father (ECF) Athenagoras of Athens declaring in his Petition to Emperor Marcus Aurelius

            "We say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God"


            In the next century the ECF Clement of Alexandria, in Paedagogus ("Pedagogue" -- the second part of his trilogy and where he explains Christian ethics)

            "Our whole life can go on in observation of the laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our desires from the beginning and if we do not kill, by various means of a perverse art, the human offspring, born according to the designs of divine providence; for these women who, if order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which expel the child completely dead, abort at the same time their own human feelings."


            Just a couple of years later the ECF St. Hippolytus of Rome, in his primary work, Refutatio Omnium Haeresium ("Refutation of All Heresies") is perfectly clear when he wrote:

            "Reputed believers began to resort to drugs for producing Sterility and to gird themselves round, so as to expel what was conceived on account of their not wanting to have a child either by a slave or by any paltry fellow, for the sake of their family and excessive wealth. Behold, into how great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by inculcating adultery and murder at the same time."


            He called abortion murder.

            Now in the 3rd cent. A.D. St. Basil the Great brings up abortion in a few of his writings telling us:

            "She who has deliberately destroyed a fetus has to pay the penalty of murder...here it is not only the child to be born that is vindicated, but also the woman herself who made an attempt against her own life, because usually the women die in such attempts. Furthermore, added to this is the destruction of the child, another murder... Moreover, those, too, who give drugs causing abortion are deliberate murderers themselves, as well as those receiving the poison which kills the fetus."


            And

            "Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years' penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not."


            About a decade later we find the Archbishop of Constantinople and ECF John Chrysostom stating

            "Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? Where there are many efforts at abortion? Where there is murder before the birth? For you do not even let the harlot remain a mere harlot, but make her a murderer also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather something even worse than murder. For I have no real name to give it, since it does not destroy the thing born but prevents its being born. Why then do you abuse the gift of God and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the place of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?"


            So from the centuries just before the advent of Christianity and for the next few centuries after it we see an unbroken tradition of viewing abortion as a horrible act. And more important than any of that look what the Bible itself says as I've already pointed out in post #10.
            Last edited by rogue06; 10-23-2018, 02:51 PM. Reason: fix link

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Not something I'm fond of, but sick? cowardly? how so?
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Not something I'm fond of, but sick? cowardly? how so?
                That is my opinion, killing these great beasts for sport is horrible...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  That is my opinion, killing these great beasts for sport is horrible...
                  Yeah, I'm not a fan, but, on the other hand, a lot of people think the same way about deer (and elk and moose...) but I don't let that stop me.

                  I actually thought that elephant hunting was illegal...but I guess, not entirely. If there's only 2 per year allowed, then they are probably very expensive hunts. That probably feeds the whole village for a year. It's most likely one of the very few ways they have to make any money.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is my opinion, killing these great beasts for sport is horrible...
                    While I myself wouldn't participate, if they were going to be culled any way and considering the poverty of the region and how getting someone to pay so they can "hunt" them so the money could be used to protect the rest of the herd...

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      Yeah, I'm not a fan, but, on the other hand, a lot of people think the same way about deer (and elk and moose...) but I don't let that stop me.
                      Yes, I hunted for years, but always used it for food. Beside elk and moose are not endangered.

                      I actually thought that elephant hunting was illegal...but I guess, not entirely. If there's only 2 per year allowed, then they are probably very expensive hunts. That probably feeds the whole village for a year. It's most likely one of the very few ways they have to make any money.
                      Can't they grow pot or something?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Partial birth abortion has been legal in Canada for decades. How can you possibly justify the killing of a child in the process of being born as long as the head is still in the birth canal?

                        Do you not see how absolutely vile and wicked that is?
                        It is not for me (or you) to judge.

                        “...late-term abortions — which anti-abortion activists sometimes refer to as "partial birth abortions" — are extremely rare”. They are virtually always performed only “because of a direct threat to the mother's life or a very serious birth defect detected in the infant. Gunter says risk factors include anencephaly, where a baby is missing parts of the brain and skull and usually dies shortly after birth; and Trisomy 18, a genetic disorder that often involves heart defects and severe intellectual disability, which kills nearly 90 per cent of infants before their first birthday”.

                        https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/0...ks_a_23510526/

                        And, again, who cares what Jewish tradition says? Their traditions over the centuries have turned them away from God and promoted them to reject their Messiah.
                        You should care what Jewish tradition says. Christianity is grounded in Judaism and it's bible.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I don't care what someone at My Jewish Learning proclaims, I'll stick with what the Bible actually states.
                          What you will “stick with” is what you believe the “bible actually states”. Others believe differently including Judaism over its 4,000 year history and many within the Christian tradition...including Evangelicalism until c. 50 years ago.

                          Despite your cherry-picked claims to the contrary, the general view has been that “Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth”.

                          https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ewish-thought/

                          Your objection to ‘My Jewish Learning” as a source, (presumably because it does not say what you want it to say) is misplaced. It is an award-winning web site and highly thought of within the Jewish community. MyJewishLearning.com won the American Jewish Press Association’s award for most “Outstanding Website.” Yasher Koach!
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            What you will “stick with” is what you believe the “bible actually states”. Others believe differently including Judaism over its 4,000 year history and many within the Christian tradition...including Evangelicalism until c. 50 years ago.

                            Despite your cherry-picked claims to the contrary, the general view has been that “Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth”.

                            https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...ewish-thought/

                            Your objection to ‘My Jewish Learning” as a source, (presumably because it does not say what you want it to say) is misplaced. It is an award-winning web site and highly thought of within the Jewish community. MyJewishLearning.com won the American Jewish Press Association’s award for most “Outstanding Website.” Yasher Koach!
                            We have shown you over and over that you are wrong about what Jews believed and taught about life of a fetus and abortion. Yet in every conversation you trot out the same lies. You are a dishonest hack and a despicable person who promotes murder of innocent babies which makes you the lowest form of pond scum.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              We have shown you over and over that you are wrong about what Jews believed and taught about life of a fetus and abortion. Yet in every conversation you trot out the same lies. You are a dishonest hack and a despicable person who promotes murder of innocent babies which makes you the lowest form of pond scum.
                              Tass has shown you over and over that you are wrong about what Jews believed and taught about life of the fetus and abortion. Yet in every conversation you trot out the same lies. You are a dishonest hack and a dispicable person who promotes men lording it over women as if they are not capable of making these choices for themselves which to them makes you the lowest form of pond scum.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Tass has shown you over and over that you are wrong about what Jews believed and taught about life of the fetus and abortion. Yet in every conversation you trot out the same lies. You are a dishonest hack and a dispicable person who promotes men lording it over women as if they are not capable of making these choices for themselves which to them makes you the lowest form of pond scum.
                                JimL, the Pee Wee Herman of Theologyweb


                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                101 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                301 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                195 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                357 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X