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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Origin of the Mind/Mental States

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I agree.
    Strange! I thought you based your “knowledge” on an unverifiable belief in the Judeo/Christian deity and his alleged revelation.

    Can you prove this? Without assuming the validity of reasoning.
    Can you prove your claim that “if reason comes from non-reason, it cannot be trusted”? No you cannot. This is an assumption.

    Well, they seem true. But once you've proposed a mechanical explanation of reason, you've completely explained why I act as I do, including all my thoughts.
    We have 'will', i.e. a desire or impulse to act based upon our reasoning processes. But “will”, although it seems to be free-will, cannot be described as 'free will'. It arises from our unconscious processes and memories which translate to thought and action.

    Can you justify a valid alternative?

    They all are a result of non-reasoning processes, which disconnects my thoughts from reality.
    What do you mean by “reality?”

    Garbage in, garbage out, as they say.
    What goes "out" depends on what comes "in" according to the quality of our socialisation and acculturation during our formative years.
    Last edited by Tassman; 11-12-2018, 11:41 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • #47
      To quote:

      “If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents, the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for our thoughts. But if our thoughts are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? " C.S. Lewis
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Strange! I thought you based your “knowledge” on an unverifiable belief in the Judeo/Christian deity and his alleged revelation.
        No, I seek good evidence for the supernatural, I think there is some.

        Can you prove your claim that “if reason comes from non-reason, it cannot be trusted”? No you cannot. This is an assumption.
        reason implies reason (something everyone will agree to)
        Therefore not-reason implies not-reason (by negating both sides of the equation and reversing the terms, modens tollens)

        We have 'will', i.e. a desire or impulse to act based upon our reasoning processes. But “will”, although it seems to be free-will, cannot be described as 'free will'. It arises from our unconscious processes and memories which translate to thought and action.
        So we don't have free will? Your typing is just as determined as my reply? But this is insanity, people can really choose.

        Can you justify a valid alternative?
        Yes, since the view of determinism leads to a contradiction, to insanity.

        What do you mean by “reality?”
        I mean what is really true.

        Best wishes,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          No, I seek good evidence for the supernatural,
          Why would you do that?

          I think there is some.
          This is wishful thinking. Time and again substantive evidence for the supernatural is promised and fails to materialize. Ever!

          reason implies reason (something everyone will agree to)
          Yes.

          Therefore not-reason implies not-reason (by negating both sides of the equation and reversing the terms, modens tollens)
          This has nothing to do with ‘reason’, which is to think, understand and form judgments via a process of logic.

          So we don't have free will? Your typing is just as determined as my reply? But this is insanity, people can really choose.
          Yes people choose. But you are claiming that people freely choose which is contrary to the evidence. It does not take into account a lifetime’s accumulation of memories and experiences lodged in our sub-conscious, which have a major effect on our decision-making processes.

          Yes, since the view of determinism leads to a contradiction, to insanity.
          The “contradiction” is claiming the existence of libertarian free-will despite the evidence to the contrary. There’s no “insanity” in accepting reality, quite the reverse...denying it is delusional thinking.

          I mean what is really true.
          How do you determine “what is really true"?
          Last edited by Tassman; 11-13-2018, 11:27 PM.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            The process of reasoning, evaluating arguments and coming to a valid conclusion. Like what we are doing here...
            Okay, and that is exactly what the brain does. It evaluates the data available to it and comes to conclusions based on that data. How does the process of reasoning differ with respect to your immaterial mind?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              To quote:

              “If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents, the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for our thoughts. But if our thoughts are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? " C.S. Lewis
              Because regardless of how the whole thing came about, our thoughts are derived of the reality of that which is. The fact that something is an accident doesn't make it untrue.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Because regardless of how the whole thing came about, our thoughts are derived of the reality of that which is. The fact that something is an accident doesn't make it untrue.
                No Jim, it is just that you can not make a logical argument defending your position. You must beg the question. You have to assume to be true what is to be proven. This is what is called a "vicious" circle.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  No Jim, it is just that you can not make a logical argument defending your position. You must beg the question. You have to assume to be true what is to be proven. This is what is called a "vicious" circle.
                  No seer, Lewis's point was inane. Accident doesn't equal untruth.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    No seer, Lewis's point was inane. Accident doesn't equal untruth.
                    Jim you missed the point. We have no rational (read logical) reason to trust our thoughts, to quote: But if our thoughts are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true

                    Why do you believe that your thoughts are true Jim? Make the case without first assuming the conclusion.

                    Darwin had the same doubts...

                    But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" [Letter To William Graham 3 July 1881]
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      No Jim, it is just that you can not make a logical argument defending your position. You must beg the question. You have to assume to be true what is to be proven. This is what is called a "vicious" circle.
                      Give me an example if you are able.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Give me an example if you are able.
                        Jim, how do you know your thoughts are true (or largely true)? You assume that because your thoughts suggest that. In other words you are assuming that your thoughts are true using your thoughts to prove it. It is a completely circular argument. Your thoughts prove your thoughts...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Jim, how do you know your thoughts are true (or largely true)? You assume that because your thoughts suggest that. In other words you are assuming that your thoughts are true using your thoughts to prove it. It is a completely circular argument. Your thoughts prove your thoughts...
                          Give me an example in particular, seer.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Give me an example in particular, seer.
                            I have no idea what you are asking Jim since it would apply to all thoughts, there is no situation where you would not have to beg the question. If you think there isn't, present an example.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I have no idea what you are asking Jim since it would apply to all thoughts, there is no situation where you would not have to beg the question. If you think there isn't, present an example.
                              It's your argument, how can you have no idea what I'm asking? I'm asking you to give me one example of a particular thought that you may wrongly be assuming to be true, which may not be true.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                It's your argument, how can you have no idea what I'm asking? I'm asking you to give me one example of a particular thought that you may wrongly be assuming to be true, which may not be true.
                                But that is not what I'm saying Jim. I'm saying that you can not make the connection without BEGGING THE QUESTION. A logical fallacy. You see a red car, how do you know you see a red car? Because your thoughts or mind relates that, but how do you know that is correct? Your thoughts confirm that. So your thoughts are are proving your thoughts, that is circular reasoning. In the big picture the evolutionary process does not, aim for, care about, on intend, that you have largely true or correct thoughts. To assume that you do is where begging the question comes in, in other words you need to use a logical fallacy to justify your position.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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