Origin of the Mind/Mental States

[JimL]

Just wanted to remind the thread that JimL has already conceded that I am correct way back here:

Which doesn't prove any such thing. It's that reading comprehension problem of yours again Sparky.

[Sparko]

Which doesn't prove any such thing. It's that reading comprehension problem of yours again Sparky.

I read you just fine.

"Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world."

Exactly the same thing I have been saying. We are on the same side Jimmy, buddy, old pal!

[JimL]

I read you just fine.

"Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world."

Exactly the same thing I have been saying. We are on the same side Jimmy, buddy, old pal!

Wrong, you believe that being aware that there is bright ball in the night sky which we call the moon is the same thing as reasoning about the bright ball in the night sky. That isn't what my post that you cited implies.

[Tassman]

Why does "awareness" require a functioning brain then?

A functioning brain is the minimum requirement for awareness of one’s surroundings. A wolf howls at the moon, it is certainly “aware” of it but is it “reasoning” about it? Answer: of course not.

What is the brain doing to make itself "aware" of something?

What it is not doing is thinking, understanding and forming reasoned, logical judgments in the case of say, a wolf howling at the moon.

[Sparko]

Wrong, you believe that being aware that there is bright ball in the night sky which we call the moon is the same thing as reasoning about the bright ball in the night sky. That isn't what my post that you cited implies.

"Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world." -JimL

[Sparko]

A functioning brain is the minimum requirement for awareness of one’s surroundings. A wolf howls at the moon, it is certainly “aware” of it but is it “reasoning” about it? Answer: of course not.



What it is not doing is thinking, understanding and forming reasoned, logical judgments in the case of say, a wolf howling at the moon.

Wolves might not have language, but they can certainly reason. You can see a dog reasoning easily enough. Put a dog on something high and watch him try to decide whether it is safe to jump or not. Or deciding whether to chew on your shoe or not. Or hiding after he did something wrong.

[JimL]

"Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world." -JimL

Very good Sherlock. But what does that have to do with the post of mine that you are responding to. I think you need to do something about that reading comprehension problem of yours , Sparko.

[JimL]

Wolves might not have language, but they can certainly reason. You can see a dog reasoning easily enough. Put a dog on something high and watch him try to decide whether it is safe to jump or not. Or deciding whether to chew on your shoe or not. Or hiding after he did something wrong.

Whether a creature can reason or not about the moon, doesn't mean they are doing so simply because they are aware of its presence.

[Sparko]

Very good Sherlock. But what does that have to do with the post of mine that you are responding to. I think you need to do something about that reading comprehension problem of yours , Sparko.

Your post is a non-sequitur. We weren't arguing about "awareness" but about logic and how to find the truth. The whole "awareness" schtick was a rabbit trail.

In order for people to discover the truth about something, reason has to come first. You make a hypothesis (reason), then devise a way to test it (reason), then you test it (observe) and then you come to a conclusion (reason)

Reason is the first step, and it is self-evident that reason doesn't have to be "proven" first. It is a first principal. We just accept "reason" as a valid way to find the truth. Because we have to use it to determine if it is valid or not. Self-referential. So it is a first principal.

And so your post was correct. You just didn't see Tassman's idiotic claim until AFTER you posted it, then you switched sides after I pointed out that you were correct and agreed with me.

[JimL]

Your post is a non-sequitur. We weren't arguing about "awareness" but about logic and how to find the truth. The whole "awareness" schtick was a rabbit trail.

In order for people to discover the truth about something, reason has to come first. You make a hypothesis (reason), then devise a way to test it (reason), then you test it (observe) and then you come to a conclusion (reason)

Reason is the first step, and it is self-evident that reason doesn't have to be "proven" first. It is a first principal. We just accept "reason" as a valid way to find the truth. Because we have to use it to determine if it is valid or not. Self-referential. So it is a first principal.

And so your post was correct. You just didn't see Tassman's idiotic claim until AFTER you posted it, then you switched sides after I pointed out that you were correct and agreed with me.

It may have been a rabbit hole, but what you were claiming to me was that to be aware was the same as to reason. If you are conceding that argument to be false, or denying that was your intent, then we are good.

[Tassman]

Wolves might not have language, but they can certainly reason. You can see a dog reasoning easily enough. Put a dog on something high and watch him try to decide whether it is safe to jump or not. Or deciding whether to chew on your shoe or not. Or hiding after he did something wrong.

Well yes, all sentient creatures can reason to a greater or lessor degree, but I suggest that in the case of wolves howling at the moon they are doing so from mere instinct, not as a reasoned response. What point are you trying to make with your insistence that “reason”, not “awareness”, precedes everything when manifestly it does not?

[Sparko]

It may have been a rabbit hole, but what you were claiming to me was that to be aware was the same as to reason. If you are conceding that argument to be false, or denying that was your intent, then we are good.

Awareness is a type of reasoning. Not all reasoning is logical thinking. When an animal makes a decision, to run away or attack, that is using reasoning. When it looks at the moon and doesn't try to eat it because it knows it is too far away, that is reasoning.

Here is a question for you. The sun is the most obvious and interesting object in the sky. Looking directly at the sun will blind you. Why aren't all animals blind from staring at the sun?

Reasoning is what brains do, JimL. Bigger and more complex brains can do more and more complex reasoning. And so reasoning is a first principal in learning anything about the outside world.

You were right the first time when you said "Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world."

Don't go acting like an idiot now just to help out your friend Tassman who is wrong.

[JimL]

Awareness is a type of reasoning. Not all reasoning is logical thinking. When an animal makes a decision, to run away or attack, that is using reasoning. When it looks at the moon and doesn't try to eat it because it knows it is too far away, that is reasoning.

Here is a question for you. The sun is the most obvious and interesting object in the sky. Looking directly at the sun will blind you. Why aren't all animals blind from staring at the sun?

Reasoning is what brains do, JimL. Bigger and more complex brains can do more and more complex reasoning. And so reasoning is a first principal in learning anything about the outside world.

You were right the first time when you said "Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world."

Don't go acting like an idiot now just to help out your friend Tassman who is wrong.

Egad! Learn when to give up Sparko, you're making yourself look bad.

[Tassman]

Awareness is a type of reasoning. Not all reasoning is logical thinking. When an animal makes a decision, to run away or attack, that is using reasoning. When it looks at the moon and doesn't try to eat it because it knows it is too far away, that is reasoning.

Here is a question for you. The sun is the most obvious and interesting object in the sky. Looking directly at the sun will blind you. Why aren't all animals blind from staring at the sun?

Reasoning is what brains do, JimL. Bigger and more complex brains can do more and more complex reasoning. And so reasoning is a first principal in learning anything about the outside world.

You were right the first time when you said "Reason and logic are self evidential valid methods of finding truth as has been proven throughout time. Reason is not itself something that need be proven, it's what we use to prove facts about the world."

“Facts about the world” are based upon initial observation and awareness of the world around us. Reasoning follows on from that. What point are you trying to make with your insistence that “reason”, not “awareness”, precedes everything when manifestly it does not?

[Sparko]

Egad! Learn when to give up Sparko, you're making yourself look bad.

Translation: "Please stop being right. We want to have the last word and you keep throwing my own words out against me proving us wrong!"