Origin of the Mind/Mental States

[Sparko]

‘Awareness’ is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as: “knowledge or perception of a situation or fact”. On the basis of this “perception” a jellyfish responds to its surroundings without the need to ‘reason’ about what it is doing.

Perception is just defined as being aware of something. So you are arguing in a circle there. Knowledge requires a brain and being able to understand something. A Jellyfish has none of that. It doesn't perceive anything. It is not aware of anything. It is just a biological machine, about as sophisticated as a plant.

[Sparko]

I believe in the history of you posting here you definitely need more than just one biology course. No one is claiming reflexes are awareness. Reflexes are a response to awareness

Reflexes do not require awareness. When someone hits your knee for example, the kick reflex happens without your brain even being involved. It is a simple nervous reaction. Maybe you should be the one taking a beginning biology course.

[JimL]

Perception is just defined as being aware of something. So you are arguing in a circle there. Knowledge requires a brain and being able to understand something. A Jellyfish has none of that. It doesn't perceive anything. It is not aware of anything. It is just a biological machine, about as sophisticated as a plant.

Jellyfish was a poor example in the first place, jellyfish don't have eyes, so aren't visually aware. But to be visually aware, to simply see the moon, doesn't take reasoning.

[Sparko]

Jellyfish was a poor example in the first place, jellyfish don't have eyes, so aren't visually aware. But to be visually aware, to simply see the moon, doesn't take reasoning.

Aware means to understand and have knowledge of something. So of course it takes reasoning. If you are asleep and someone opens your eyes, your eyes are seeing and sending signals to your brain, but your brain is not aware of what the eyes are seeing because you are asleep. I had a friend who actually slept with his eyes open sometimes. He was not aware of anything he was seeing.

[shunyadragon]

Perception is just defined as being aware of something.

True as the jellyfish is aware of the different shades of light, and responds. You just confirmed that awareness is independent of reasoning.

So you are arguing in a circle there. Knowledge requires a brain and being able to understand something. A Jellyfish has none of that. It doesn't perceive anything. It is not aware of anything. It is just a biological machine, about as sophisticated as a plant.

Yes, again . . . the jellyfish is aware and perceives shades of light. Some plants can also perceive different shades of light and respond, and yes they too cannot reason.

Your digging a deeper, and deeper hole. They whole point is that awareness is independent of reason.

[Tassman]

Perception is just defined as being aware of something.

Yes. In the example of the jellyfish it is aware of its surroundings.

So you are arguing in a circle there. Knowledge requires a brain and being able to understand something. A Jellyfish has none of that. It doesn't perceive anything. It is not aware of anything. It is just a biological machine, about as sophisticated as a plant.

I’m not talking about “knowledge” or “reasoning” merely making the point, which you keep erroneously disputing, that before any reasoning can occur one must first be aware if its existence.

[Sparko]

True as the jellyfish is aware of the different shades of light, and responds. You just confirmed that awareness is independent of reasoning.



Yes, again . . . the jellyfish is aware and perceives shades of light. Some plants can also perceive different shades of light and respond, and yes they too cannot reason.

Your digging a deeper, and deeper hole. They whole point is that awareness is independent of reason.

No Jellyfish are not aware of anything. They have no brains. They are merely biological machines with programmed reflexes.

I can't believe someone as educated as you is as ignorant of simple terminology and biology.

[Sparko]

Awareness: Awareness is the ability to directly know and perceive, to feel, or to be cognizant of events. More broadly, it is the state of being conscious of something. Another definition describes it as a state wherein a subject is aware of some information when that information is directly available to bring to bear in the direction of a wide range of behavioral processes. The concept is often synonymous to consciousness and is also understood as being consciousness itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness

[Tassman]

Awareness: Awareness is the ability to directly know and perceive, to feel, or to be cognizant of events. More broadly, it is the state of being conscious of something. Another definition describes it as a state wherein a subject is aware of some information when that information is directly available to bring to bear in the direction of a wide range of behavioral processes. The concept is often synonymous to consciousness and is also understood as being consciousness itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness

It's the "more broadly" bit where you go wrong. You've extended the definition to fit into your own argument re the importance of reasoning. "Awareness", in its simplest form, is the ability to perceive surroundings.

[Sparko]

It's the "more broadly" bit where you go wrong. You've extended the definition to fit into your own argument re the importance of reasoning. "Awareness", in its simplest form, is the ability to perceive surroundings.

I didn't extend anything. Your bolded part says "being conscious of something" And the part you reference says "ability to KNOW and perceive" -- you left out the word "KNOW" - it also concludes that awareness is synonymous to consciousness and is understood to be consciousness itself.

You can't wiggle out of it Tassman, Awareness requires reasoning and a brain.

[Tassman]

You can't wiggle out of it Tassman, Awareness requires reasoning and a brain.

Not in the case of organisms such as jellyfish, which survive according to how they respond to aversive or positive stimuli in their surroundings. If they were not aware of their surroundings they could not respond.

[JimL]

I didn't extend anything. Your bolded part says "being conscious of something" And the part you reference says "ability to KNOW and perceive" -- you left out the word "KNOW" - it also concludes that awareness is synonymous to consciousness and is understood to be consciousness itself.

You can't wiggle out of it Tassman, Awareness requires reasoning and a brain.

Explain how being aware of the moon is reasoning about the moon? Give an example of this reasoning process.

[Sparko]

Not in the case of organisms such as jellyfish, which survive according to how they respond to aversive or positive stimuli in their surroundings. If they were not aware of their surroundings they could not respond.

They aren't aware Tassman. they merely react. You could program a robot to do the same thing. It is just a biological machine that has programmed responses to stimuli. It isn't aware of anything.

Awareness requires at least rudimentary consciousness which requires a sophisticated brain.

[Sparko]

Explain how being aware of the moon is reasoning about the moon? Give an example of this reasoning process.

You have to realize that it is an object, that the object is not you which requires a sense of self, that things outside of yourself exist, that it gives off light, that it is not close by, that you can't eat it... the more intelligent the brain the more realizations come into play.

[Tassman]

They aren't aware Tassman. they merely react. You could program a robot to do the same thing. It is just a biological machine that has programmed responses to stimuli. It isn't aware of anything.

No, it is ‘awareness’ at its simplest level. As opposed to a programmed robot, the jellyfish is programmed by evolution. In both cases there are aware to the extent that their survival is enhanced by how they respond to danger and the environment in general.

Awareness requires at least rudimentary consciousness which requires a sophisticated brain.

Not in all cases.