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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Origin of the Mind/Mental States

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    You have to realize that it is an object, that the object is not you which requires a sense of self, that things outside of yourself exist, that it gives off light, that it is not close by, that you can't eat it.
    An intelligent, reasoning entity will understand these things. This is not to say that creatures of limited intelligence will not be aware of them to some extent. It's not an 'all or nothing' thing, it's graduated.

    .. the more intelligent the brain the more realizations come into play.
    True, but at the bottom end of the spectrum a creature such as a wolf will still howl at the moon with virtually none of these realizations.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      No, it is ‘awareness’ at its simplest level. As opposed to a programmed robot, the jellyfish is programmed by evolution. In both cases there are aware to the extent that their survival is enhanced by how they respond to danger and the environment in general.



      Not in all cases.
      Yes in all cases, awareness requires a brain. And a brain capable of being at least somewhat conscious of itself.

      Feel free to prove me wrong instead of just repeating yourself. Find a scientific paper that says jellyfish are aware.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        An intelligent, reasoning entity will understand these things. This is not to say that creatures of limited intelligence will not be aware of them to some extent. It's not an 'all or nothing' thing, it's graduated.



        True, but at the bottom end of the spectrum a creature such as a wolf will still howl at the moon with virtually none of these realizations.
        The wolf has most of those realizations. It is aware that the moon is a far away object that is not part of itself, that it isn't food or something it can eat, that it gives off light.

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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          They aren't aware Tassman. they merely react. You could program a robot to do the same thing. It is just a biological machine that has programmed responses to stimuli. It isn't aware of anything.

          Awareness requires at least rudimentary consciousness which requires a sophisticated brain.
          They have to be aware to react.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            The wolf has most of those realizations. It is aware that the moon is a far away object that is not part of itself, that it isn't food or something it can eat, that it gives off light.
            Are you arguing that the wolf is reasoning "that the moon is a far away object that is not part of itself, that it isn't food or something it can eat, that it gives off light". I don't think so. The most one can say that the wolf is aware of the moon and reacts by baying at it.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              You have to realize that it is an object,
              That's called observation, Sparko.

              that the object is not you which requires a sense of self,
              When a kitten looks in the mirror it is aware of the object it see's there, but it is not aware that the object it see's is it's self. Why? Because observation is not the same as reasoning.


              that things outside of yourself exist, that it gives off light, that it is not close by, that you can't eat it...the more intelligent the brain the more realizations come into play.
              They don't have to realize all those things about the moon in order to observe it's existence.

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              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                They have to be aware to react.
                No they don't Shuny. Reflexes work without awareness. If that weren't the case you would have suffocated long ago as soon as you fell asleep, or have gone blind because your pupils did not adjust to bright light.

                Jellyfish are "hardwired" - there is no "software"

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                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Are you arguing that the wolf is reasoning "that the moon is a far away object that is not part of itself, that it isn't food or something it can eat, that it gives off light". I don't think so. The most one can say that the wolf is aware of the moon and reacts by baying at it.
                  The wolf has no language, but he can reason. You don't see wolves trying to eat the moon or attack it do you? Why not? And the whole "wolf baying at the moon" is a trope.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    That's called observation, Sparko.


                    When a kitten looks in the mirror it is aware of the object it see's there, but it is not aware that the object it see's is it's self. Why? Because observation is not the same as reasoning.



                    They don't have to realize all those things about the moon in order to observe it's existence.
                    A kitten will think the reflection is another kitten. He is reasoning, just incorrectly. Observation requires awareness which requires some level of reasoning. It doesn't have to be verbal reasoning. It does require a brain though.

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                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      The wolf has no language, but he can reason. You don't see wolves trying to eat the moon or attack it do you? Why not? And the whole "wolf baying at the moon" is a trope.
                      You are projecting. A wolf is aware of the moon and howls at it instinctively. It not reasoning about it being "a far away object that is not part of itself", etc. etc.etc.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        You are projecting. A wolf is aware of the moon and howls at it instinctively. It not reasoning about it being "a far away object that is not part of itself", etc. etc.etc.
                        Wolves can reason quite well Tassman. Ever watch a dog standing on something high and trying to decide if it can jump down or not? They are aware of distance and objects.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Wolves can reason quite well Tassman. Ever watch a dog standing on something high and trying to decide if it can jump down or not? They are aware of distance and objects.
                          So what are wolves reasoning about when they howl at the moon?
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            So what are wolves reasoning about when they howl at the moon?
                            They don't. It's a wive's tale. They just howl to communicate with each other.

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                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              They don't. It's a wive's tale.
                              Yes, it seems that this is correct.

                              They just howl to communicate with each other.
                              Presumably this is instinctive behaviour, not 'reasoned' behaviour as such.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                They don't. It's a wive's tale. They just howl to communicate with each other.
                                How about you go through the reasoning process of a mouses observation of the moon.

                                Comment

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