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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Origin of the Mind/Mental States

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  • Origin of the Mind/Mental States

    Are there any good arguments in favor of the view that our minds or mental states are not physical entities and cannot come from something that is physical? I'm asking just out of curiosity.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    Are there any good arguments in favor of the view that our minds or mental states are not physical entities and cannot come from something that is physical? I'm asking just out of curiosity.
    Well, that minds and mental states are not physical entities is pretty blatantly obvious for anyone with even half a brain. A simple analysis of your own mind will clear up that question pretty quickly.

    Whether or minds can come (or emerge) from something physical however, is a more complicated question, and not as easily answerable. I'm not sure how exactly mind emerging from matter would work and I'm utterly unconvinced by the argument that a mind will eventually arise if you just get matter configured in a sufficiently complex way, but I don't have any slam dunk arguments against it's possibility.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Well, that minds and mental states are not physical entities is pretty blatantly obvious for anyone with even half a brain. A simple analysis of your own mind will clear up that question pretty quickly.

      Whether or minds can come (or emerge) from something physical however, is a more complicated question, and not as easily answerable. I'm not sure how exactly mind emerging from matter would work and I'm utterly unconvinced by the argument that a mind will eventually arise if you just get matter configured in a sufficiently complex way, but I don't have any slam dunk arguments against it's possibility.
      This represents Ad hominem accusations and not evidence.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        Well, that minds and mental states are not physical entities is pretty blatantly obvious for anyone with even half a brain. A simple analysis of your own mind will clear up that question pretty quickly.

        Whether or minds can come (or emerge) from something physical however, is a more complicated question, and not as easily answerable. I'm not sure how exactly mind emerging from matter would work and I'm utterly unconvinced by the argument that a mind will eventually arise if you just get matter configured in a sufficiently complex way, but I don't have any slam dunk arguments against it's possibility.
        Computer software is not physical, yet it runs on a physical chip. Think of the entire virtual worlds created on computers.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          This represents Ad hominem accusations and not evidence.
          What does that even mean Frank?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Computer software is not physical, yet it runs on a physical chip. Think of the entire virtual worlds created on computers.
            I don't believe computer software actually exists in anything other than in the users consciousness. Unless a conscious mind is there to process/interpret what's on the screen it's just complexly arranged pixels that mean absolutely nothing.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Computer software is not physical, yet it runs on a physical chip. Think of the entire virtual worlds created on computers.
              That's a good point. Computer software came from someone's mind and that person's mind is not physical.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Well, that minds and mental states are not physical entities is pretty blatantly obvious for anyone with even half a brain. A simple analysis of your own mind will clear up that question pretty quickly.

                Whether or minds can come (or emerge) from something physical however, is a more complicated question, and not as easily answerable. I'm not sure how exactly mind emerging from matter would work and I'm utterly unconvinced by the argument that a mind will eventually arise if you just get matter configured in a sufficiently complex way, but I don't have any slam dunk arguments against it's possibility.
                What do you think of this argument? Something cannot come from nothing. Suppose there once was only matter. Rearranging matter according to the laws of physics and chemistry will only produce a different form of matter. It will not produce something that is immaterial.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  I don't believe computer software actually exists in anything other than in the users consciousness. Unless a conscious mind is there to process/interpret what's on the screen it's just complexly arranged pixels that mean absolutely nothing.
                  computer software can run by itself and come up with solutions to problems without any one watching it or interpreting it. The software is just electrical patterns run on the chips, just like thoughts are electrical impulses run on neurons.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    computer software can run by itself and come up with solutions to problems without any one watching it or interpreting it. The software is just electrical patterns run on the chips, just like thoughts are electrical impulses run on neurons.
                    Computer software can also control vehicles, factories, traffic/flow control systems, household appliances and other machines, again without anyone watching or interpreting it. Screen content was never the only outcome of running software.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                    MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      computer software can run by itself and come up with solutions to problems without any one watching it or interpreting it. The software is just electrical patterns run on the chips, just like thoughts are electrical impulses run on neurons.
                      I think we're looking at it from completely different abstraction levels. I'm saying that whatever is shown on the computer monitor as a result of a program being run doesn't mean anything by itself, it only has significance when interpreted through a human mind. It's the same with a book, those weird squiggles on the paper doesn't actually mean anything on their own, it's only when we put them in an interpretive pattern that they acquire any sort of meaning.

                      So yes, the software can run by itself, and it will result in an output of specific patterns of pixels on the screen, but there needs to be a mind to interpret those patterns, otherwise it's just meaningless noise.

                      When it comes thoughts being electrical impulses run on neurons I think it's pretty obvious that they are not the same. If the electrical impulses run on neurons are equal to our thoughts, it would have to follow that they had exactly the same qualities and attributes that our thoughts does, and a simple analysis of both the electrical impulses and our thoughts shows that they have hardly anything in common. If we take only two attributes of both electrical impulses and thoughts and compare them (and showing that they are different in only one aspect would be enough to demonstrate that they are not the same), we can see for example, that while thoughts have intentionality (they are about something), electrical impulses are not about anything at all. Similarly, thoughts are subjective, they cannot be accessed or experienced by anyone else but the person having them, while the electrical impulses in the brain can be measured and observed by anyone with the proper equipment.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I think we're looking at it from completely different abstraction levels. I'm saying that whatever is shown on the computer monitor as a result of a program being run doesn't mean anything by itself, it only has significance when interpreted through a human mind. It's the same with a book, those weird squiggles on the paper doesn't actually mean anything on their own, it's only when we put them in an interpretive pattern that they acquire any sort of meaning.
                        I am talking from an information standpoint. The software is data and information that is not physical in nature that runs on a physical device. You were asking how something not physical could emerge from something physical. I gave you an analogy. A computer program is not physical while running. Just electrical patterns running on electronic circuits. The mind could be the same thing. The mind is the software of the brain, so to speak. If you damage the brain, you damage the mind. Or maybe the mind is entirely spiritual and the brain is some sort of conduit to connect the mind to the physical world.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          I think we're looking at it from completely different abstraction levels. I'm saying that whatever is shown on the computer monitor as a result of a program being run doesn't mean anything by itself, it only has significance when interpreted through a human mind.
                          Unfortunately you're also implying that whatever happens to the {monorail car/rocket/wind-turbine blade/oil pipeline} as a result of the program being run only has significance when interpreted through a human mind, regardless of how many {buildings are damaged/asteroid orbits are affected/bird are killed/trees die from spilt pollution from overpressure}.

                          When a tree dies in a forest and no-one sees it, does it have significance?
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                          MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I am talking from an information standpoint. The software is data and information that is not physical in nature that runs on a physical device. You were asking how something not physical could emerge from something physical. I gave you an analogy. A computer program is not physical while running. Just electrical patterns running on electronic circuits. The mind could be the same thing. The mind is the software of the brain, so to speak. If you damage the brain, you damage the mind. Or maybe the mind is entirely spiritual and the brain is some sort of conduit to connect the mind to the physical world.
                            I don't think software is non-physical. Or at least not immaterial in the same sense that a thought, or consciousness is. At no point between the CPU doing it's operations to information being shown on the screen is anything other happening than energy and matter interacting with each other. I don't really see how the relationship between electrical patterns running on electronic circuits and software is similar to the relationship between electrical impulses run on neurons and thoughts, mainly because I don't see how thoughts could have any similarity to software at all. I also don't think the patterns in the electronic circuit relate to software in the same way the electrical impulses relate to our thoughts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              I don't think software is non-physical. Or at least not immaterial in the same sense that a thought, or consciousness is. At no point between the CPU doing it's operations to information being shown on the screen is anything other happening than energy and matter interacting with each other. I don't really see how the relationship between electrical patterns running on electronic circuits and software is similar to the relationship between electrical impulses run on neurons and thoughts, mainly because I don't see how thoughts could have any similarity to software at all. I also don't think the patterns in the electronic circuit relate to software in the same way the electrical impulses relate to our thoughts.
                              think of a computer running a 3D model of a bat hitting a ball. Neither the ball nor the bat exist in physical reality, nor do they exist in the various circuits of the computer, nor in the software itself. yet the software can model the bat and ball, even computing where the ball and bat intersect, the trajectory of the ball, etc. the software is basically nothing but transistors turning on and off in the CPU in varying sequences. Yet we have a model of a ball and bat that don't exist physically and can be acted upon by other parts of the software. It doesn't depend on you seeing it or interpreting it. It runs regardless. Forget the screen. The screen is just a display of what the computer is modelling. No different than you writing out your thoughts for someone else to read.

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