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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    One cannot arrive at a true premise via reasoning from the armchair alone, through some sort of blend of intuition, pure reason and conceptual analysis.
    Actually that is exactly what philosophy is, Tassman.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Where did I ever claim reasoning a first principle?
      I claim that it is a first principle, it must be. I don't know if you claim this, but if not, then there is no way to prove the validity of reasoning.

      Still waiting for you to answer my question: What is your specific argument for what you consider is a sufficient first-principle?
      But first principles are assumed as necessary and self-evident, they are not to be argued for.

      The validity of reasoning cannot be determined by 'reasoning correctly from premise to a conclusion.'
      Agreed.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The "reasoning" is just the process of arguing correctly from premises to a conclusion. How do you obtain the premise from which you begin the process?
        That's up to the one making the argument, it could be a conditional premise, one that might be true or false, or a first principle.

        Best wishes,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Ah, but here you must assume the validity of reasoning in order to make this argument for the validity of reasoning. And making an argument means it is not a first principle.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Again, again,again and again no. You're dodging my question with constant cracked record circular reasoning.

          I gave you the reasonable sources that explain First-Principles, and they are NOT reasoning in and of itself. Yes reasoning cannot justify, prove nor make an argument fro easoning, because that is circular reasoning that results in insanity, or on the other hand stubborn intransigent apologetics.

          Still waiting . . .
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-16-2018, 03:19 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Actually that is exactly what philosophy is, Tassman.
            Yes, that's is exactly what philosophy is. And for all its value in logical reasoning, a philosophical argument cannot arrive at a true conclusion unless it can be shown that its premise is true.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              That's up to the one making the argument, it could be a conditional premise, one that might be true or false, or a first principle.
              A premise that "might be true or false" will result in a conclusion that "might be" true or false, i.e. merely a belief not a reliable fact.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I gave you the reasonable sources that explain First-Principles, and they are NOT reasoning in and of itself.
                Agreed.

                Yes reasoning cannot justify, prove nor make an argument fro easoning, because that is circular reasoning …
                Agreed again.

                Still waiting . . .
                But I'm not sure what your question is, I've tried to respond to all your points.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  A premise that "might be true or false" will result in a conclusion that "might be" true or false...
                  Agreed... I'm apparently being very agreeable.

                  Best wishes,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    A
                    But I'm not sure what your question is, I've tried to respond to all your points.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    You have not responded to my question concerning your view of what is the 'first-principle' that is necessary. Your arguments concerning the 'first-premise' of reasoning are not meaningful, confusing, circular, and at best foggy.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Agreed... I'm apparently being very agreeable.
                      You've agreed to my comment that "A premise that "might be true or false" will result in a conclusion that "might be" true or false", but you snipped the important bit, namely that such a premise "may be merely a belief not a reliable fact". Why?
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Yes, that's is exactly what philosophy is. And for all its value in logical reasoning, a philosophical argument cannot arrive at a true conclusion unless it can be shown that its premise is true.
                        The very concept that you need to show a premise is true is an act of reasoning, Tassman.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          The very concept that you need to show a premise is true is an act of reasoning, Tassman.
                          Yes, so what. Put another way, reasoning can not arrive at a true conclusion, unless it can first arrive at a true premise.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The very concept that you need to show a premise is true is an act of reasoning, Tassman.
                            I'm not saying it isn't. But this was in the context of lee_merrill's "validity of reasoning" claims, wherein he seems to be erroneously conflating "valid argument" with "true argument.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Yes, so what. Put another way, reasoning can not arrive at a true conclusion, unless it can first arrive at a true premise.
                              You have to accept that reasoning is a valid method of finding the truth as a first principal, as something self-evident. Reasoning is a basic principal that you can't "prove" without using reason. A big circle.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                I'm not saying it isn't. But this was in the context of lee_merrill's "validity of reasoning" claims, wherein he seems to be erroneously conflating "valid argument" with "true argument.
                                He is arguing that correct reasoning is a first principal that you have to just accept as valid and true. Which you do. It is Prima Facie.

                                Comment

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