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Midterms and Discord

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Saying something comes from a playbook doesn't mean that there is a concerted effort by every single person but rather it is a tactic that is employed. It was employed in 2000 and much more widely in 2016
    Apparently carpe thinks there is an actual Democrat party playbook that guides their every decision.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I have said before, I don't think anyone should be hassled in their private life, even in public, like eating out or going to a theater. If you want to complain to your politician, either organize a legal protest with permits and such, or write them letters, or protest at their place of work.

      Here we have a heckler disrupting McConnell's dinner, and other patrons telling him to stop. Yes that is common sense. I would do the same if someone was heckling a democrat in a restaurant. It is not only rude, but it is actually illegal to harass someone in public like that. It is disturbing the peace and verbal assault.
      Then we are apparently in agreement. I'll take you at your word.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Even in the street is wrong unless it is a properly permitted protest march. You can't just hassle people walking down the street. If you tried that with me I would call the police on you and have you arrested.
      We are guaranteed the right to peaceful assembly. A permit is only required if the protest is going to impede public rights of way, or occupy spaces normally considered off-limits to human traffic (e.g., the median of a highway). That is the way that the law balances the right of peaceful assembly with the right of those NOT involved to go about their business.

      As for "hassling people walking down the street," here there is a fairly fine line. If you are not touching the person, and are simply expressing a point of view about their positions, and they are a public figure, you are not in transgression of the law. You might be in transgression of simple human decency, depending on how you are expressing yourself. But "verbal assault" is typically related to conveying a threat of bodily harm.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Again, disturbing the peace and harassment.
      I sincerely doubt anyone would win that lawsuit. A large group of people, silently holding up signs voicing their disagreement with policy, and otherwise doing nothing, would not be considered verbal assault (unless the sign says, "watch your back!"). Since such a thing would be on private property, the owner could justifiably ask everyone to leave. But the law is not going to even think of arresting these people in such a situation.

      If you're a public person, you had better get used to public feedback. I don't agree with the harass them at every turn - but I have no problem with people picketing peacefully outside an elected official's home - or office - or along the route they use to drive between the two - or in a public park, etc.

      At some point, Sparko, you cross into the "can't express disagreement" space that so many colleges are flirting with.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I said that the liberals were complaining about Trump winning the election and not accepting the results. You tried to nitpick your way out by saying "well not ALL liberals did that" and trying to change the topic.
        Some liberals. Most are complaining. As best I can tell, most accept that the election was validly held. The Russian angle, as best I can tell, is to ferret out coordination between the campaign and Russia (which has already been shown to have occurred to some degree), not to show that the Russians "hacked" the election rendering it invalid. Persuading Americans with "fake reports" is not illegal - and I know no liberals/Democrats who think it is.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        The liberals and democrats in general, as a group, have been doing everything they can to claim the election was illegitimate.
        Not as far as I can tell. They ARE convinced that Trump colluded with the Russians to get help in his win. We already know that happened - we just don't know to what degree. But none f that makes the election illegitimate. It means Trump and his campaign may (or may not) have acted illegally at some point. Frankly, as far as I can tell, collusion is not a legal problem - it's a political one. The legal problem is obstruction of justice.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        While there might be some democrats who have not, as a group they have. It's been going on for two years now. From Waters screaming "Impeach 45" and encouraging harassing people on the street, to a liberal shooting at republicans at a baseball game, to antifa beating on republicans and burning cars and trying to stop conservatives from speaking, to the widespread complaint about the popular vote vs the electoral vote, to some representatives actually trying to start impeachment papers on Trump, to forcing an investigation of Trump's campaign.
        And we have a presidential leader encouraging his followers to attack demonstrators and offering to pay their legal fees, proudly cheering a candidate who body slammed a journalist (and the crowd cheers), screaming "lock her up" at national rallies (without any indication of due process), advocating for the suspension of due process for immigrants illegally entering the country, and the list goes on. There are people of violence on both sides, Sparko. Your sole focus on the left as the "bad guys" indicates your unbalanced view.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        And once again, it seems that the Democrats are trying to accuse Trump of not accepting the election results if they turn against him. HA!
        Which is apparently what is being discussed within the White House. We shall have to see if it manifests.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Saying something comes from a playbook doesn't mean that there is a concerted effort by every single person but rather it is a tactic that is employed. It was employed in 2000 and much more widely in 2016
          So then I assume you would be comfortable with the observation that the Republican playbook is to make every effort to suppress the votes of liberals and Democrats using a variety of techniques: purging voter roles, eliminating specific IDs primarily used by the poor and minority communities, adding VoterID requirements proximate to an election cycle, etc.)? And then there is the flood of "hard-hitting" attack ads hitting the airwaves that just contain one lie after another - which is another common element from the "Republican Playbook" (although that one seems to arise from both sides - the Republican leadership and marketing people just do it better.)
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Apparently carpe thinks there is an actual Democrat party playbook that guides their every decision.
            Actually - my comment was to underscore the non-existence of such a thing.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Then we are apparently in agreement. I'll take you at your word.
              gee. Thanks?



              We are guaranteed the right to peaceful assembly. A permit is only required if the protest is going to impede public rights of way, or occupy spaces normally considered off-limits to human traffic (e.g., the median of a highway). That is the way that the law balances the right of peaceful assembly with the right of those NOT involved to go about their business.

              As for "hassling people walking down the street," here there is a fairly fine line. If you are not touching the person, and are simply expressing a point of view about their positions, and they are a public figure, you are not in transgression of the law. You might be in transgression of simple human decency, depending on how you are expressing yourself. But "verbal assault" is typically related to conveying a threat of bodily harm.
              how is that a peaceful assembly when they are yelling and screaming at someone trying to walk down the street? How is that NOT impeding the public right of way? It is disturbing the peace, creating a nuisance, harassment, verbal assault, threatening behavior.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                So then I assume you would be comfortable with the observation that the Republican playbook is to make every effort to suppress the votes of liberals and Democrats using a variety of techniques: purging voter roles, eliminating specific IDs primarily used by the poor and minority communities, adding VoterID requirements proximate to an election cycle, etc.)? And then there is the flood of "hard-hitting" attack ads hitting the airwaves that just contain one lie after another - which is another common element from the "Republican Playbook" (although that one seems to arise from both sides - the Republican leadership and marketing people just do it better.)
                Enforcing the laws ought not be thought of as anyone's "playbook." Here in Georgia we have a Democrat candidate for Governor saying that the hoped for blue wave of Democrats is "comprised of those who are documented and undocumented" which I think it is fair to say is an attempt at encouraging illegal voting from non-citizens[1]. And liberals have gone apoplectic with rage that a sudden last minute dump of voter registrations are being questioned because they are missing addresses and social security numbers (or the latter doesn't match up with the person named -- often by several numbers)[2]




                1. Repeatedly asked what role undocumented immigrants will be playing in the midterms if they are not legal voters has only garnered silence from Abrams

                2. The ever compliant MSM that reports on this "outrage" regularly seems to leave out the point that all the person with an incomplete registration has to do is show up with a photo ID at the polls (something they are already required to do) and they can vote. And since Georgia gives out such IDs for free if you say you can't afford one and they will even come out to where you live and issue you a free one if you claim it is too inconvenient to go to one of the score of places in each county (and Georgia has a lot of counties none of which geographically speaking is very large) where they're issued, there is no legitimate excuse for not having one.

                It should be noted that other Democrat candidates who ran for Governor but didn't win the party's nomination also questioned Abram's group noting that in 2014 something like a quarter of those they registered then turned out to be fraudulent.
                Last edited by rogue06; 10-22-2018, 02:25 PM.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  If this article is even close to true, it is scary indeed. That a president of the United States would so little respect our democratic process to attempt to intentionally sow discord and confusion if his party loses would be abysmal. Unfortunately, Bernstein has a pretty solid track record of nonpartisan digging and finding the facts. So the probability that this is true is fairly significant, IMO. The only thing that might stop it is if the pre-election anticipation of this tactic is so widespread and strong, that Trump doesn't actually dare pull the trigger.

                  I will be so happy when this lying, manipulative, hate-fostering, vile man is gone from this office. 2020 cannot come soon enough.
                  I don't think we could find so much of the hate by the media and Democrats unless they already had it in themselves. Too bad a lot of regular people are also caught up in that hatred.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    gee. Thanks?
                    You're welcome.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    how is that a peaceful assembly when they are yelling and screaming at someone trying to walk down the street?
                    I don't believe I defended people "yelling and screaming at someone trying to walk down the street." I noted I find that behavior rude. Legally, it is not verbal assault unless the things being said convey the intention to do harm to the person walking down the street. I also see no reason why a public figure should expect to NOT have demonstrations against their positions if their positions are anathema to some segment of the population. People from the right picket abortion clinics all the time. I don't see a lot of sympathy for the women who have to go through that gauntlet to get to medical services.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    How is that NOT impeding the public right of way?
                    If they do not occlude the public right of way (e.g., do it from the median between the curb and the sidewalk, then it is legally protected assembly and speech (unless it rises to the level of "verbal assault - as previously discussed.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    It is disturbing the peace, creating a nuisance, harassment, verbal assault, threatening behavior.
                    It may be - depending on what is being said and how it is being said, and depending on whether or not the demonstration occludes a public right of way. It is not necessarily any of those things just because someone(s) is(are) protesting a position they find unacceptable.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Enforcing the laws ought not be thought of as anyone's "playbook." Here in Georgia we have a Democrat candidate for Governor saying that the hoped for blue wave of Democrats is "comprised of those who are documented and undocumented" which I think it is fair to say is an attempt at encouraging illegal voting from non-citizens[1]. And liberals have gone apoplectic with rage that a sudden last minute dump of voter registrations are being questioned because they are missing addresses and social security numbers (or the latter doesn't match up with the person named -- often by several numbers)[2]

                      1. Repeatedly asked what role undocumented immigrants will be playing in the midterms if they are not legal voters has only garnered silence from Abrams

                      2. The ever compliant MSM that reports on this "outrage" regularly seems to leave out the point that all the person with an incomplete registration has to do is show up with a photo ID at the polls (something they are already required to do) and they can vote. And since Georgia gives out such IDs for free if you say you can't afford one and they will even come out to where you live and issue you a free one if you claim it is too inconvenient to go to one of the score of places in each county (and Georgia has a lot of counties none of which geographically speaking is very large) where they're issued, there is no legitimate excuse for not having one.

                      It should be noted that other Democrat candidates who ran for Governor but didn't win the party's nomination also questioned Abram's group noting that in 2014 something like a quarter of those they registered then turned out to be fraudulent.
                      Actually - it has not garnered silence. Abrams pretty clearly rejected the claim that her statement called for undocumented votes. Unfortunately, that doesn't play well, and the Republican candidate would rather keep pushing forward the false narrative in his ads and arguments - because it rallies the base. After all - those nasty old immigrants are taking over our country!
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Actually - it has not garnered silence. Abrams pretty clearly rejected the claim that her statement called for undocumented votes. Unfortunately, that doesn't play well, and the Republican candidate would rather keep pushing forward the false narrative in his ads and arguments - because it rallies the base. After all - those nasty old immigrants are taking over our country!
                        By "clearly rejecting the claim", you mean the part in the video where she simply says that her words were taken out of context? That's a "clear rejection"?
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          By "clearly rejecting the claim", you mean the part in the video where she simply says that her words were taken out of context? That's a "clear rejection"?
                          Yes - plus this little quote: "I am a lawyer by training and I have fought for voting rights and I have never in my life suggested that anyone's who not legally registered should be allowed to cast a ballot,"
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Yes - plus this little quote: "I am a lawyer by training and I have fought for voting rights and I have never in my life suggested that anyone's who not legally registered should be allowed to cast a ballot,"
                            That's in the video? (yeah, I skimmed it)
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              That's in the video? (yeah, I skimmed it)
                              It is quoted in the article.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It is quoted in the article.
                                Wow, I have to watch the video AND read something?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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