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The Simplicity of the Gospel in One Word

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  • Originally posted by FarEastBird
    The story of Adam is a parable just like the story of Jacob and Esau on the womb. My understanding, briefly, is that the sinfulness of Adam is contrasted to Christ’s holiness. And what is contrasted is the image. The sinful image is passed on to every human being, which the apostle Paul says is a natural event that happens to every man. The image of sinfulness, earthly, afterwards the image of holiness. But not all attain the image of holiness...
    You should make yourself aware that of all of Adam's children, only one is said to have been begotten in his image...
    Have a read of Genesis 5...and it is to this son the line of salvation is traced...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
      I believe that you have not searched some of the crucial realities why your belief in work is actually problematic, especially when in reference of how the kingdom of God would be at peace.
      Actually, you have no Idea what my beliefs are concerning works…
      But one thing, for sure, about knowledge, which the Christian God tells us, that we cannot know the Godhead without being an elect. God requires knowledge more than offering of works, yet it is God who gives knowledge to whom he elected according to his purpose.
      The Christian God; is there another God.
      Who are the elect? What is another name by which they are referred to in the bible?
      According to scripture, what is God’s purpose for the elect…?

      There are lot of things I really want to discuss, but I know we are very limited through the forum. But I will hope you try to give a deep study about loving foolish people who have zeal of God. I’m seriously asking you to try and study them(foolish people) and understand what they contribute in the problems in the society, even in the church.
      Today’s wise man is tomorrows fool, and vice versa.
      Snip
      Oh… I asked you the above noting that you said that you have studied extensively about what I believed. I was not influenced by Reformed theology. Reality will teach you more than the wisest of men.
      I did not say that I’ve studied extensively about what you believe, I said that I’ve studied reformed theology extensively…

      Note that you are appealing to work out salvation. I am not denying that the Bible is not filled with such kind of persuasions. But look at things in a broader way.

      If you want to look at things in a much broader way, then let’s not pretend to be exegeting scripture. In which case, if we were then we are definitely leaning more to the wisdom of men rather than scripture.

      God gave the law to Israel to take care of sins. But the law only takes care of sin on a temporal basis, it does not solve the problem of our nature that we will inevitably sin again…and again…and again….. On top of that, we have to resolve sins that we ignorantly commit. Regardless we did such sins ignorantly we still have to resolve it; thus the law requires us to have a solution for it. Sin, regardless how small it is, will bring death. Admitting that we are sinners, and loving God, would not take away the problem of sin.
      My one and only resolution for sin is Christ Jesus.

      And one crucial point that lead me to my sort of Calvinistic soteriology is this: No one can promise with certainty that he would not sin in a given day, else God will require us of such in our entire lives. I believe, the reason we are being convicted by just one sin, regardless we may fulfill all other laws, is because we actually have no power over sin. We have a lesson of that through Peter in the gospel. Peter knew Christ better than of the other disciples; even the spirit revealed to him that Jesus is the Christ. But when Peter promised Christ to be always with him in the night of Christ’s persecution, Jesus told Peter that he will deny him instead.
      To the untrained eye, you appear to sort of ramble on and on in your responses. At times part of what you say is relevant to our discussion, most of the time it is not…

      Sin translated is disobedience. When we are aware of God’s permissions and prohibition’s, we sin sins that require accountability. Without Law, {knowledge of the law} sin is not imputed…

      [quote]The solution to this kind of problem has to be that God should be in control of all things. And basically, that is the message of the gospel.[quote]

      Are you aware of the difference between “in control, and “controlling”?

      The law of Moses is about God’s personal plan about the spiritual temple that God will create, the church, the Jerusalem, the city of God. Christ came to fulfill his part of the law, being the lamb to be offered in the day of Nisan. So, the gospel of Christ is about him fulfilling his part on the plan of God about the Church.

      Second foremost problem is the ignorance of men. In a full perspective it is really hard to distinguish a Church leader’s job in managing the affairs of the Church. Much more will be harder to discern the question of how, and of what way, will he do his job. Besides this difficulty, the church members themselves are not aware, or are simply ignorant of the deep burden of a Church leader. So here we have a problem of the difficulty of discerning the burden of leadership, and the problem of the church discerning the rightful leader. .
      How is this relevant to our discussion?

      Now, the solution to the second problem is to hold on to the prophecies of God. When God spoke of how to discern whom He sends to the people, He said that the evidence of whom he sends is of the person’s ability to prophesy(Deut18:21-22). On the other side of this, the prophesy itself foretold that “God will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and come to naught the understanding of the prudent;” this simply, yet deeply, meant we cannot rely on our own ability to think. Even Christ himself, in dealing with his disciples, told them at times that they would not understand him, until the time comes. As a true leader the difficulty of giving the message as well as the members having the ability to discern is impossible. So the way for the church to be in unity is when a Church leader prophesies and comes to be fulfilled. We can know, this way, that it is God who unifies us, not men.

      Of course, for a person who rely on his will, his failure is inevitable.
      Your comments: “On the other side of this, the prophesy itself foretold that “God will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and come to naught the understanding of the prudent;” this simply, yet deeply, meant we cannot rely on our own ability to think."
      Have you ever applied this bit of wisdom to your own dissertations? Why are you to be believed? I ask because you presumably apply this lil nugget to everyone but your own self. When in reality if it destroys the integrity of my comment, it certainly does the same to yours…

      So you believe that men have freed themselves from the causal chain, and became gods themselves? This is a lie, and this has a domino effect on the whole of your beliefs. But this is even beside the point.
      The causal chain of sin indeed has to be broken before men can be justly held accountable for their sin, This causal chain in negated by the doctrine of freewill…
      Last edited by dacristoy; 07-25-2014, 11:52 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
        The word used at John 17:3 (ginōskō) does not refer to an intellectual knowledge but knowledge gained through an intimate relationship, such as the intimate knowledge a husband or wife attains about their spouse...ie: what makes them tick!
        Well said.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
          You should make yourself aware that of all of Adam's children, only one is said to have been begotten in his image...
          Have a read of Genesis 5...and it is to this son the line of salvation is traced...
          God made a demonstration of the law of works through Israel, it was never intended that salvation would only be for Israel. The fall of Israel, for which the salvation of Gentiles came, is part of the demonstration of salvation of God through grace. God elects through grace ever since the beginning. God is using Israel’s history to teach us of His salvation.

          Now look, and understand this carefully. Note carefully how Adam’s image was contrasted as an earthly image, and then the heavenly image was referred of Jesus Christ!!! (1Cor 15:45-49) The truth is, that no one amongst men, even of Adam, before the time of Christ, had truly attained to be in the image of God. Jesus is the FIRST ONE to be in the image of God!!! That is why Jesus is the FIRST(only) begotten son!!!! The FIRSTBORN from the dead!!!!

          Now, understand also that the promised “SEED,” not seeds, was the heir. This is to connote that salvation is traced through ones’ being in the image of God, not because they belong to the lineage, or of being descendants of those given the promise; this is even demonstrated through Ismael and Isaac. But note what I am saying above: NONE amongst the children of men had really ever attained to be in the image of God!!!! Else they would have had been already saved, and the salvation through the blood of Christ becomes unnecessary!!!

          Even of the present New Testament that we speak of, we speak of the salvation of men as God’s works. Christ’s salvation through his death is a DEMONSTRATION of the salvation of God. Instead of preaching that we can work out our salvation, rather we preach that the kingdom of God is given to those whom God had chosen since the world begun. And the promised “Kingdom of God” is no other but the spiritual equivalent of the law of Moses. What would become of the kingdom of God is prophesied, if you have no part on the prophecy, then you are not of God.

          So you have to revisit what you have learned about the image of God……
          ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
          ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
          https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • He who believes and is baptised will be saved. Interesting - that doesn't say that a person is saved, even if he conforms with the stated requirements: it only says that he will be. Of course, the natural reading shows that both actions are necessary to salvation, and that salvation is an expected outcome of both actions, neither alone being sufficient.
            But of course, we can dream up any number of convoluted stories to prove that the author didn't mean what he said.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
              Your comments: “On the other side of this, the prophesy itself foretold that “God will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and come to naught the understanding of the prudent;” this simply, yet deeply, meant we cannot rely on our own ability to think."

              Have you ever applied this bit of wisdom to your own dissertations? Why are you to be believed? I ask because you presumably apply this lil nugget to everyone but your own self. When in reality if it destroys the integrity of my comment, it certainly does the same to yours…
              I said those things for the lost because it is impossible to them to know and understand God. Thus is why, instead of leaning in the wisdom of those whom God sent, rather they should look forward to the prophesy that is being told by those whom God sent. For if they partake in the prophesy, then it is God itself which will reveal the mystery unto them.

              Foremost issue here is how would we know, between us, is correct. It would seem that I would not be convinced of yours, and you would not be convinced of mine. Either one of us is ignorant, or a fool; or perhaps both of us. And it is probable that some people will not be able to understand us and thus will be unable to judge us. In reality, it would seem impossible to discern who truly are the elect of God by merely basing on their wisdom and understanding. So, if you do not know any prophesy, that is a sign that you are erring.

              On my part, my belief was drawn with my understanding of prophesies. And I believe that it is God who gives us the right knowledge and understanding. If one is of God, I expect that he can discern my knowledge to be of God, irregardless I am not articulate.


              The causal chain of sin indeed has to be broken before men can be justly held accountable for their sin, This causal chain in negated by the doctrine of freewill…
              If God would rely on your free will, when will you stop sinning?
              Last edited by FarEastBird; 07-26-2014, 08:00 AM.
              ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
              ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
              https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                . . . it only says that he will be. Of course, the natural reading shows that both actions are necessary to salvation, . . .
                A natural wrong reading. The promise is good. But no where in holy scripture is water baptism a requirement in order to be saved. Even if understanding ". . . like figure [anti-type] whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us . . ." is understood being saved [obtaining eternal life] in baptism. It too does not show water baptism as a requirement in order to be saved. [Not even my view of its meaning.] Nowhere does any holy scripture teach not being baptized one is yet lost.

                Salvation is a current possession of the saved [Ephesians 2:5, 8. 1 John 5:1. 1 John 5:12. Romans 8:9. 2 Corinthians 13:5. ]
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                  The word used at John 17:3 (ginōskō) does not refer to an intellectual knowledge but knowledge gained through an intimate relationship, such as the intimate knowledge a husband or wife attains about their spouse...ie: what makes them tick!
                  There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom is based on knowledge; thus one cannot have wisdom without knowledge. Yet one can have knowledge without wisdom. Two persons can agree with a certain knowledge about love, but they may differ in maturity. A matured person understand love with wisdom, not with mere knowledge. If you are understanding what I am saying, you would already notice your error. If you cannot know the difference between wisdom and knowledge, then all I am saying is nonsense to you. Truth is, regardless how much one would explain what wisdom is, the knower will only understand it when he has the gift of ability to receive it.


                  Now, it is wisdom that saves, not knowledge.

                  Eccl 7:12
                  12 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

                  Prov 4:7
                  7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


                  1Cor 1:24
                  24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
                  ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                  ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                  https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                    If God would rely on your free will, when will you stop sinning?
                    Death puts an end to sin... That's when...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      A natural wrong reading. The promise is good. But no where in holy scripture is water baptism a requirement in order to be saved. Even if understanding ". . . like figure [anti-type] whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us . . ." is understood being saved [obtaining eternal life] in baptism. It too does not show water baptism as a requirement in order to be saved. [Not even my view of its meaning.] Nowhere does any holy scripture teach not being baptized one is yet lost.

                      Salvation is a current possession of the saved [Ephesians 2:5, 8. 1 John 5:1. 1 John 5:12. Romans 8:9. 2 Corinthians 13:5. ]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                        Death puts an end to sin... That's when...
                        I can infer, that when you are raised to life again, you still have that free will.....and you will sin again?...and again.....and again....and again....?

                        Now see how lost you are..............the mystery goes like this:

                        1John 3:9
                        9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



                        1John 3:5-6
                        5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

                        John 8:32
                        32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free........Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
                        ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                        ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                        https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                          I can infer, that when you are raised to life again, you still have that free will.....and you will sin again?...and again.....and again....and again....?

                          Now see how lost you are..............the mystery goes like this:

                          1John 3:9
                          9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



                          1John 3:5-6
                          5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

                          John 8:32
                          32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free........Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
                          Yup.

                          1 John 3:4
                          4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

                          Romans 4:15
                          15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

                          Romans 6:14
                          14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                            There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom is based on knowledge; thus one cannot have wisdom without knowledge. Yet one can have knowledge without wisdom. Two persons can agree with a certain knowledge about love, but they may differ in maturity. A matured person understand love with wisdom, not with mere knowledge. If you are understanding what I am saying, you would already notice your error. If you cannot know the difference between wisdom and knowledge, then all I am saying is nonsense to you. Truth is, regardless how much one would explain what wisdom is, the knower will only understand it when he has the gift of ability to receive it.


                            Now, it is wisdom that saves, not knowledge.

                            Eccl 7:12
                            12 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

                            Prov 4:7
                            7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


                            1Cor 1:24
                            24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
                            I do not think you understood apostoli's point. There is a difference between having knowledge of God and personally knowing God.

                            ". . . this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • If God would rely on your free will, when will you stop sinning?
                              The process begins when a person understands that by the Holy Spirit, he is enabled to stop sinning. The process is completed .... maybe 40 years later.
                              The new born baby (all being well) has the potential to walk - it will take time for the baby to learn how to reach that potential. Likewise, the new born Christian has the potential to stop sinning - it will take time to reach that potential. Assuming he ever learns that he has the potential.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 07-27-2014, 02:28 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                I do not think you understood apostoli's point. There is a difference between having knowledge of God and personally knowing God.

                                ". . . this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
                                I know very well what I am talking about, and how it relates to apostoli's point.

                                See, there is only ONE Wisdom. To know Christ is to know the TRUTH; and TRUTH encompasses EVERYTHING. So then, the Wisdom that is of God is drawn from the knowledge of the Truth, from knowledge of ALL things. We cannot know God without knowing the Truth/Everything.

                                Obviously, apostoli had misrepresented already what is to know about God. And the "limited" knowledge of God that apostoli hold can only produce imperfect wisdom.
                                Last edited by FarEastBird; 07-27-2014, 08:43 AM.
                                ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                                ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                                https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                                Comment

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