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Christians and hate

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  • Christians and hate

    From the Civics thread on hate in a political context, I thought this might be worth its own thread as an in-house debate.

    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    The real problem is I see that happening more and more. It's very ... bizarre*. Mainly because the way the conversation goes on the Christian side just has no resemblence whatsoever to what is spoken about these sorts of things on the sermon on the mount or other passages of the new testament. If your enemy wants your coat, give him your cloak also. If your enemy strikes on on the cheek, offer him the other. If they want you to walk a mile, walk two. If people curse you, bless them instead. And so on. I just can't figure how it goes from those things Jesus said to what we are seeing written here.



    *no insult intended to the atheists


    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    I think this might be overly simplistic. The Bible (Old and New Testament) has a lot to say about hating evil, falsehood, pride, idolatry, etc.
    Thoughts, discussion...?
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  • #2
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #3
      Just a note from the rules for this forum.... emphasis mine.

      This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        Thoughts, discussion...?
        Psalm 5:

        For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness; with you, evil people are not welcome.The arrogant cannot stand in your presence.You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies.

        So it seems that God hates, so hate can be good...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #5
          Romans 1 is very clear that we have to not accept wickedness, but must speak out against it.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            The real problem is I see that happening more and more. It's very ... bizarre*. Mainly because the way the conversation goes on the Christian side just has no resemblence whatsoever to what is spoken about these sorts of things on the sermon on the mount or other passages of the new testament. If your enemy wants your coat, give him your cloak also.
            The real problem I see is that Christians (who are the most giving people in the USA) see giving as a personal action. Liberals on the other hand want to take money from tax payers to help others. The Sermon on the Mount (and other passages) speak to individuals. In other words they are a guide to individual behavior of believers. Liberals want to somehow make these into political statements as opposed to behavioral guides.

            The second part of this problem is that, as I mentioned in an earlier post today, is that the government is extremely inefficient at getting money allotted to a problem to actually go to doing anything to solve said problem. First there has to be an expensive bureaucracy set up, headed by wealthy politicians. Their first step will be to fund an expensive study. A relatively small share of the original funds allotted will ultimately be spent on what, in the opinions of a few wealthy politicians, will help to make the problem situation better.

            Past experience tells me that little, if any, actual improvement will take place.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              The real problem I see is that Christians (who are the most giving people in the USA) see giving as a personal action. Liberals on the other hand want to take money from tax payers to help others. The Sermon on the Mount (and other passages) speak to individuals. In other words they are a guide to individual behavior of believers. Liberals want to somehow make these into political statements as opposed to behavioral guides.
              I probably don't have much liberal credit these days, but... I would say it's a bit more nuanced than this. Liberals have more trust in the government's ability to govern than in individual's ability to know how to effectively donate time/money. And certainly, individuals are often bad at this, as they have limited to misleading information. Just try figuring out how we're supposed to be living/what to buy to be environmentally friendly- it's exhausting reading and fact-checking contradictory information, to say nothing of following any of it. As for politics, yes, it is addressing individuals, but what we value as individuals does inform our political values. So, if you believe that giving to the poor is a good value - and you have faith that the government can do this effectively - then you vote for policies that do this. Tax money is taken in a collective sense, and again, if you have faith in the government, you view that as a more reliable means of helping than by leaving it with individuals.

              Now, as a not-quite-liberal Christian, I can completely accept that Christians who only want to deal with matters of charity on an individual level are still being good Christians. Just, politically I don't believe it's the best policy. (Although I would be more in favor of taxing institutions/property over individuals, particularly those that don't provide useful services)

              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              The second part of this problem is that, as I mentioned in an earlier post today, is that the government is extremely inefficient at getting money allotted to a problem to actually go to doing anything to solve said problem. First there has to be an expensive bureaucracy set up, headed by wealthy politicians. Their first step will be to fund an expensive study. A relatively small share of the original funds allotted will ultimately be spent on what, in the opinions of a few wealthy politicians, will help to make the problem situation better.

              Past experience tells me that little, if any, actual improvement will take place.
              This is sometimes the case. But the studies that the government does that individuals can't(and most corporations lack the motivation for) do provide us with useful information, when competent people are doing them. I don't see corruption and laziness as being more concentrated in government institutions, only that we are more likely to recognize it when present there. And also, in many areas the government is quite efficient. So I'm not overly concerned about it when individuals and local charities can do the same thing, with less accountability. While waiting on things to improve at the federal level, we should be getting more involved in local politics.

              As for hate, I hate pedophiles, prostitution, surrogacy, unnatural means of producing children, liars and hypocrites. I'm ok with being hateful on many issues.

              Comment


              • #8
                I have an issue in general with identifying negative statements of one's ideological opponents as 'hate'. Unless someone is explicitly using the word or a near synonym to describe their own feelings, it's a chancy business identifying anything as such solely through the medium of the typed word.

                Then again, with carpe in particular, I often take issue with his use of words (to the point where I mostly don't bother discoursing with him because it's like we're using two different languages to communicate).
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I have an issue in general with identifying negative statements of one's ideological opponents as 'hate'. Unless someone is explicitly using the word or a near synonym to describe their own feelings, it's a chancy business identifying anything as such solely through the medium of the typed word.

                  Then again, with carpe in particular, I often take issue with his use of words (to the point where I mostly don't bother discoursing with him because it's like we're using two different languages to communicate).
                  I am not going to engage in this thread - because it is not my place. However, the observation above is a misrepresentation of the position I have taken - so I invite people to view what I have actually said in the original thread. I'll be happy to respond to questions there.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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                  • #10
                    I think one of the most striking things that the Bible says (not just on this subject, but in general) is that God doesn't just hate pride; He actually hates the proud. This is a tough one for me.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      I think one of the most striking things that the Bible says (not just on this subject, but in general) is that God doesn't just hate pride; He actually hates the proud. This is a tough one for me.
                      "Hate the sin but love the sinner" is -- at best -- inferred from Scripture, not explicitly taught in Scripture.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

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