Should Trump's economy make us ignore his lying, attacks on individuals and the press

[JimL]

I believe it is problem saying that it is tRump who is responsible for the good economy gains in recent years to call it tRump's economy. It is very clear that the pattern of the economic growth, and decline in unemployment began well into Obama's administration coming out of a deep recession, and was going strong until the end. I give strong credit to the American economy, and neither administration can claim full credit.

The bottom line is by the evidence it is NOT tRump's economy.

I have no problem with being anti-tRump based on his behavior, tax evasion tactics, outrageous tax breaks for the rich, anti-environment, appealing to extreme right views and support for his election, and racist and ethnic denigrating attitude.

Not to mention his fraud, his money laundering, and his treason to democracy around the world.

[carpedm9587]

I do believe Trump lies - just like all the other ins. I was only pointing out that he is just one more liar in office.

Ahhh.. I see. I missed that in your post. My bad.

So your position is that Trump is no better/worse than any other politician when it comes to lying?

[carpedm9587]

And I got that from what you said. Carpe obviously did not read your post because he is so anti-Trump biased.

I actually did read the post. However, I apparently misinterpreted his words.

Assuming motivation is always a bit of a gamble, Moss. In this case, you're wrong.

[mossrose]

I actually did read the post. However, I apparently misinterpreted his words.

Assuming motivation is always a bit of a gamble, Moss. In this case, you're wrong.

Maybe. Maybe I've learned from the playbook of the liberals on the site, who assume all kinds of things about people who may or may not support Trump.

[carpedm9587]

Maybe. Maybe I've learned from the playbook of the liberals on the site, who assume all kinds of things about people who may or may not support Trump.

It is always iffy to make assumptions about one person based on their membership in a group - especially when you don't even have the membership right.

[Sparko]

Source: https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/the-nazis-and-the-german-economy/

© Copyright Original Source

The simple answer is no, it should not. In fact, his mimicking of Hitlers attacks on the press, his close associations with nationalism, his approaches to immigration, his constant lying, and a clear dose of 20/20 hindsight should make us very, very cautious about excusing these things because 'some of what he does (e.g. improving unemployment) is good'.

Jim

Godwin's law. You lose.

[oxmixmudd]

Godwin's law. You lose.

No. I refuse that argument. It is not even an argument, it's sarcasm. And sick sarcasm at that. There have been so many others. Pol Pot. Khadafi. Hussain. Stalin. Mussolini. Mao. Lennin. Kim Jong Un, Kim Jong il, Castro, and this list can go on and on and on. There is no shortage of men willing to commit unspeakable horrors to achieve power and fame.

Refusing to understand and know what allowed these men to take power and abuse it is the first step to allowing it to happen again. Refusing to recognize those patterns if they are seen in other situations is the second step to allowing it to happen again.

"Never Forget" is the motto of those who suffered the Holocaust. You just espoused a way of approaching these issues that encourages us to forget. That rebukes those that remember.

Trump is using methods used by Hitler and Stalin to suppress the press. Trump is banking on the improvements in the economy to encourage his base to ignore the wrongs he is embraciing, just like Hitler did. The party of Trump is refusing to push back against Trumps excesses just like Hitlers did. And Trump has a base immune to the warnings of any journalist or pundit that tries to expose what Trump is doing that is wrong, just like many of the above did.

You may be willing to forget. You may be Naive enough to think it can't happen here. I am not. These are warning signs. We ignore them to our peril. If not now, then the next candidate who builds on the path Trump has paved and takes it just a little further. We've been on a path of increasing presidential power for a while now and it has paved the way for Trump. Trump has taken that and boosted it an order of magnitude by creating this block of people who have pledged him fielty regardless of what he does and whose voting power has essentially blocked all resistance within the republican party to any evil he engages in. We are in trouble Sparko. Is it fatal, I don't know. But when intelligent people like you, Rogue, OBP, and others ignore these warning signs and march in lock step with Trumps base, it is a very bad thing.


Jim

[rogue06]

Honestly, I don't think that matters. This is how I see it. If the MSM was mad at Trump for pushing to increase border security in more normal terms, or if they were mad at him say for supporting the rights of the Cake guy in Colorado to refuse to make a gay wedding cake, and so on. Normal differences between liberal and conservative positions on these issues. And Trump was say a bit more forceful and obnoxious that your normal politician. THEN you could make a statement like that and it would have legitimate meaning.

But just being obnoxious, or refusing to use the language of political correctness is NOT what makes Trump the extreme. No, Trump is out there undermining our relationships with our NATO allies. He is using tactics used by Stalin, Hitler and others to create complete public mistrust of ANY push back against him by the press of his policies within his own supporters ranks. To the point he effectively has, with his supporters, completely license. At this point, even if Fox pushes back, or breitbart. His supporters will now say that is because not ALL reporters support trump. Do you not see the problem there? There is no outlet that can expose a problem with Trump amongst his supporters. He has effectively succeeded there.

He is abusing the power of the presidency to add to his wealth by refusing to divorce himself from clear conflicts of interest with the Saudi's or with his hotels catering to ambassadors and lobbiests in DC. He has tried to get the military involved in police actions on the border. He said he would order troops to fire on immigrants throwing rocks, rather than seek better solutions. He has pushed immigration policies that border on if not are inhumane. He lies constantly. Nothing he says can actually be trusted to reflect the truth, and yet his base has been so inoculated against the press that nothing he lies about is of any concern to them, and they lash against the press for pointing out when he is lying.

This is not normal. And ALL of us should be concerned. And it doesn't matter if the folks pointing out the problems are democrat, independent, progressive or republican because so many of these issues have such negative consequences to the success of our democracy, the success of separation of powers, that we conservatives can't be ignorantly choosing to side with Trump because the outlets for the news tend to stand with some things normally we would be against. The extremes that Trumps 'is' put all of us in danger. And unfortunately the voices in our own party have - because of what trump has been able to accomplish with his base - chosen not to fight him on these issues. They've chosen their own position in power over the good of the country.

The republicans are in a catch 22. If they push back against Trump, then someone that is more willing to blindly follow Trump will be elected. Which would be even worse that what we have - maybe. And that is why people like you, and Sparko, and OBP, and CP and so many others here. Intelligent conservative voters, need to stop with knee jerk hatred of the media and start looking at the elements of who Trump is that are truly dangers to what America is, What the Founding Fathers intended, who we are as a people, who we are as Christians.

And if Trump is not the danger I think he is, HE HAS PAVED THE WAY FOR A POLITICIAN THAT IS. I think Trump could take power in a way unprecedented in our republic if he continues unchallenged, if he wants to. And if he doesn't want to, anyone that does want to has in Trump a road map for that accomplishment, because he can see that given the right setup, the right amount of conflict and decisiveness, such a president can in fact count on the fact that good people that know better can be convinced to look the other way as he marches down that road.



Jim

The antics of the MSM are the same now wrt Trump as they were before he became president so you can't excuse their mindless, unhinged hatred on Trump's actions as president since it started well before that.

Ever since there has been a free press politicians have pilloried it and blamed it for lying and misrepresenting. Even Thomas Jefferson, long considered a stalwart defender of the press wrote "Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper." But typically you immediately start tearing ligaments stretching to make comparisons with Hitler and Stalin who did a lot more than merely bad mouth the press.

[Bill the Cat]

Source: https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/the-nazis-and-the-german-economy/

© Copyright Original Source

The simple answer is no, it should not. In fact, his mimicking of Hitlers attacks on the press, his close associations with nationalism, his approaches to immigration, his constant lying, and a clear dose of 20/20 hindsight should make us very, very cautious about excusing these things because 'some of what he does (e.g. improving unemployment) is good'.

Jim

The false equivocations here are impressive, Jim.

[carpedm9587]

No. I refuse that argument. It is not even an argument, it's sarcasm. And sick sarcasm at that. There have been so many others. Pol Pot. Khadafi. Hussain. Stalin. Mussolini. Mao. Lennin. Kim Jong Un, Kim Jong il, Castro, and this list can go on and on and on. There is no shortage of men willing to commit unspeakable horrors to achieve power and fame.

Refusing to understand and know what allowed these men to take power and abuse it is the first step to allowing it to happen again. Refusing to recognize those patterns if they are seen in other situations is the second step to allowing it to happen again.

"Never Forget" is the motto of those who suffered the Holocaust. You just espoused a way of approaching these issues that encourages us to forget. That rebukes those that remember.

Trump is using methods used by Hitler and Stalin to suppress the press. Trump is banking on the improvements in the economy to encourage his base to ignore the wrongs he is embraciing, just like Hitler did. The party of Trump is refusing to push back against Trumps excesses just like Hitlers did. And Trump has a base immune to the warnings of any journalist or pundit that tries to expose what Trump is doing that is wrong, just like many of the above did.

You may be willing to forget. You may be Naive enough to think it can't happen here. I am not. These are warning signs. We ignore them to our peril. If not now, then the next candidate who builds on the path Trump has paved and takes it just a little further. We've been on a path of increasing presidential power for a while now and it has paved the way for Trump. Trump has taken that and boosted it an order of magnitude by creating this block of people who have pledged him fielty regardless of what he does and whose voting power has essentially blocked all resistance within the republican party to any evil he engages in. We are in trouble Sparko. Is it fatal, I don't know. But when intelligent people like you, Rogue, OBP, and others ignore these warning signs and march in lock step with Trumps base, it is a very bad thing.

Jim

I have to admit that I find it refreshing and encouraging to find these views espoused by someone with "Christian" as their self-described faith. I think there is a general perception that Christians are solidly aligned behind Trump. I have not seen data about Christians in general, and I suspect that it is mostly evangelicals that are so solidly aligned.

In general, I have to say I agree with you. Trump has all of the hallmarks of a dictator and I suspect, if he were in a context other than the U.S., he would already be one. Of course, I cannot prove that. It's merely a suspicion. He pretty consistently praises dictators and strongmen, and emulates many of their tactics.

And it is not only the slide towards executive power that has paved the way for Trump - it is also the poisonous mewling of people like Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, Maddow, and all of the rest of the media commentators who have been pushing the populace further right and left in the name of ratings. We have become a society addicted to hate and anger, and are increasingly focusing that hate and anger on one another.

In case no one has noticed, this is exactly what Putin has wanted for a long time: the destabilization of democracy. Every time we point that vocal cannon of hate at one another, and attack the person instead of the idea, my guess is he is chuckling with delight at his success.

[lilpixieofterror]

[oxmixmudd]

Mockery is not an argument. It is first simply a form of ad hominem, and second often a result of ignorance. In this case, it is also a form of projection since the attack itself mostly reflects your own dislike for what I have said.



Jim

[Sparko]

No. I refuse that argument. It is not even an argument, it's sarcasm. And sick sarcasm at that. There have been so many others. Pol Pot. Khadafi. Hussain. Stalin. Mussolini. Mao. Lennin. Kim Jong Un, Kim Jong il, Castro, and this list can go on and on and on. There is no shortage of men willing to commit unspeakable horrors to achieve power and fame.

Refusing to understand and know what allowed these men to take power and abuse it is the first step to allowing it to happen again. Refusing to recognize those patterns if they are seen in other situations is the second step to allowing it to happen again.

"Never Forget" is the motto of those who suffered the Holocaust. You just espoused a way of approaching these issues that encourages us to forget. That rebukes those that remember.

Trump is using methods used by Hitler and Stalin to suppress the press. Trump is banking on the improvements in the economy to encourage his base to ignore the wrongs he is embraciing, just like Hitler did. The party of Trump is refusing to push back against Trumps excesses just like Hitlers did. And Trump has a base immune to the warnings of any journalist or pundit that tries to expose what Trump is doing that is wrong, just like many of the above did.

You may be willing to forget. You may be Naive enough to think it can't happen here. I am not. These are warning signs. We ignore them to our peril. If not now, then the next candidate who builds on the path Trump has paved and takes it just a little further. We've been on a path of increasing presidential power for a while now and it has paved the way for Trump. Trump has taken that and boosted it an order of magnitude by creating this block of people who have pledged him fielty regardless of what he does and whose voting power has essentially blocked all resistance within the republican party to any evil he engages in. We are in trouble Sparko. Is it fatal, I don't know. But when intelligent people like you, Rogue, OBP, and others ignore these warning signs and march in lock step with Trumps base, it is a very bad thing.


Jim

So you double down on the fallacy of comparing Trump to Hitler? smh.

1. Hitler used the economy to get followers. Hitler told lies.
2. Trump used the economy to get followers. Trump tells lies.
Therefore Trump is Hitler!!!!

Except so does every other politician.



Jim this is about the stupedist and most trolling thread you have started in civics. You should be ashamed.

[Sparko]

Mockery is not an argument. It is first simply a form of ad hominem, and second often a result of ignorance. In this case, it is also a form of projection since the attack itself mostly reflects your own dislike for what I have said.



Jim

Your entire premise is just ad hominem against Trump and a result of hatred, bigotry and ignorance on your part.

[lilpixieofterror]

Mockery is not an argument. It is first simply a form of ad hominem, and second often a result of ignorance. In this case, it is also a form of projection since the attack itself mostly reflects your own dislike for what I have said.



Jim