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  • #16
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    So...great economy? Maybe. Progress? I suggest not...
    The thing is after the recession there was a lot of pent up demand, though my company had it worse years then. So under Obama there was basically no way to go but up, that of course was helped a great deal by Quantitative Easing, a policy of the Fed, not Obama. I think Obama did what he could to stop the bleeding, but he did little or nothing to spur business growth, as a matter of fact many of his regulations stifled growth. Trump on the other hand has done much to deregulate, and cut business taxes. Even if his numbers are similar to Obama, Trump has laid a good foundation for business growth.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      That was partly tongue-in-cheek,
      Umm... wrong cheek?

      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      but if you're saying I should be more charitable and not be so quick to see "whataboutism" everywhere...I agree.
      No - I was actually saying that you should use "whataboutism" for things that actually are. Charity has nothing to do with it.

      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      ETA: Also, why doesn't it qualify? Mountain Man mentioned something about everything being blamed on Trump, and you almost literally said "but what about many on the right doing this?"

      If you're finding this frequent crying of "whataboutism" annoying, without trying to understand the intent of what it's responding to, I completely understand.
      I'm not finding it annoying (why do people keep attributing emotions to me that I don't have? Now THAT is annoying ) - I'm finding it incorrectly used.

      What about is a specific technique used when someone points out a deficiency in X to divert the attention to Y to avoid answering the problem with X.

      - Trump lies!
      - What about Obama, huh?

      Obama has nothing to do with Trump's lying. It doesn't justify Trump. It doesn't negate the fact that Trump lies. It doesn't excuse the fact that Trump lies. It's irrelevant. It's a diversion.

      This thread was about credit for accomplishments where credit is due. Trump gets credit (and takes credit) for many things that he had little or no impact on, or the impact is short-term with a long-term downside because of the approach he chose to take (e.g. the tax cuts). In the midst of this, MM tosses how everything good was credited by the left to Obama and all the blame to Bush before him - this from a person who I have never seen say anything positive about Obama, regularly credits Trump with things that began in the Obama years, and I don't ever recall having seen him criticize Trump. The glaring disconnect was pretty obvious.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Umm... wrong cheek?



        No - I was actually saying that you should use "whataboutism" for things that actually are. Charity has nothing to do with it.



        I'm not finding it annoying (why do people keep attributing emotions to me that I don't have? Now THAT is annoying ) - I'm finding it incorrectly used.

        What about is a specific technique used when someone points out a deficiency in X to divert the attention to Y to avoid answering the problem with X.

        - Trump lies!
        - What about Obama, huh?

        Obama has nothing to do with Trump's lying. It doesn't justify Trump. It doesn't negate the fact that Trump lies. It doesn't excuse the fact that Trump lies. It's irrelevant. It's a diversion.

        This thread was about credit for accomplishments where credit is due. Trump gets credit (and takes credit) for many things that he had little or no impact on, or the impact is short-term with a long-term downside because of the approach he chose to take (e.g. the tax cuts). In the midst of this, MM tosses how everything good was credited by the left to Obama and all the blame to Bush before him - this from a person who I have never seen say anything positive about Obama, regularly credits Trump with things that began in the Obama years, and I don't ever recall having seen him criticize Trump. The glaring disconnect was pretty obvious.
        I still think what you did is whataboutism, even by your reasoning here. Mountain Man was commenting on leftists' tendency (right or wrong--irrelevant to my point) to credit Obama with good things and blame Bush for bad things. You responded by effectively changing the subject to the right doing the same thing in reverse. In other words, "what about this...."

        Now, to be clear, I don't actually have a problem with your post. Your post pointed out partisanship from the other side, AFAICT to underscore the fact that partisanship is a problem no matter what "side" it comes from. I agree with this, and I think your response was fine.

        All I'm saying is, by the standards of all the people frequently calling out whataboutism, I've seen them guilty of it plenty (using their own reasoning). It's unfair of me to dismiss posts like yours, which make IMO a valid counterpoint.

        Also WRT what is annoying and attributing emotion to you: wasn't my intent. Sorry if that's how I came across; I'm a lousy communicator sometimes.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I misread your post. I thought you were comparing taking money from the rich to give to the poor to the rich giving their money to their descendants (e.g. inheritance)
          Not at all - I was comparing "robbing-the-rich-to-feed-the-poor" with "robbing-future-generations-to-appease-current-generations."

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          And you are leaving nothing to your Children? that's rough.
          We will leave a small stipend - but the bulk of the estate is going to charity. Believe it or not, Sparko, I don't think perfectly sound-bodied individuals with the capacity to succeed should be getting hand-outs from people of means. My sons included. The will provides a stipend in the event they are on hard times - nothing more. I would like to see funds go to those who need the support to escape the trap of poverty. My sons had all of the advantages of a good home, adequate resources, access to a good education, and pretty generous parents in life.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Y'know... Earlier in another thread when I mentioned wealth equality and why California doesn't do it, you started in with not all liberals want such a thing and pretty much tried to defeat my question by pretending it wasn't really a liberal thing after all. And here you are pushing for it.
          No - I actually didn't. That's all you were hearing, so I abandoned the discussion. Your question was "why isn't california doing X if they're all so liberal," and I pointed out pretty much exactly what others said afterwards. Not all liberals think the same, and liberals have the same problems "getting everyone on board" that conservatives have. The last election gave them a super-majority, improving the chances that some of this might happen. Even then, however, it is "Democrats" that have the super majority. Last I checked, we still had democrats that ran from "very liberal" to "pretty moderate." Not too many conservatives anymore. So even now they may not have enough votes to do some of the things you asked about.

          You perpetually speak about "liberals" and "democrats" as if they were one super-herd of identically-minded individuals acting collectively. That is no more true for liberals than it is for conservatives.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I don't mind taxes if they are fair. But when the government starts telling certain groups that they have too much money and don't deserve it and then takes it away from them to give to people who didn't earn it, then it ceases to be taxes and becomes theft.
          Interesting. I've searched for laws or bills that say, "rich people have too much money so we're going to take it away" and I'm not finding any. Do you have some examples where this is the justification?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            It's an empty slogan shouted out in a futile attempt to cover up hypocritical double standards
            No - it's a call-out to a diversion from the subject at hand. I have yet to have anyone who uses this technique on me show me where I have been hypocritical about anything.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              The thing is after the recession there was a lot of pent up demand, though my company had it worse years then. So under Obama there was basically no way to go but up, that of course was helped a great deal by Quantitative Easing, a policy of the Fed, not Obama. I think Obama did what he could to stop the bleeding, but he did little or nothing to spur business growth, as a matter of fact many of his regulations stifled growth. Trump on the other hand has done much to deregulate, and cut business taxes. Even if his numbers are similar to Obama, Trump has laid a good foundation for business growth.
              So...there's the rub. In point of fact - Obama did a great deal to stimulate growth. That's what made the deficit soar, remember? Between direct support for struggling verticals, and increases in federal spending to stimulate the economy and derail deflation - a great deal was done. But Obama ALSO saw many regulations as important, and didn't hesitate to use them. Trump has reversed that, IMO, to all of our losses.

              You see, Seer, some of us DON'T think money and the economy are everything. The economy was recovering - jobs were returning - the stock market was doing well - AND we were seeing efforts made to reign in pollution - tackle CO2 emissions and possibly slow the global warming phenomenon - increase safety in the workplace - require financial institutions to be fiscally responsible and avoid another debacle like 2008-2010. If it means the economy grows a bit slower, or businesses make a bit less money - so be it. Some things are more important than money.

              But the Republican party (and most people I know on the right) seem to worship the almighty dollar above pretty much anything else. They seem to worship it so much, they'll put a man like Trump in the highest office in the land, turn a blind eye to his groping women, childish taunting, serial lying, vengeance seeking and all of the other non-Christian values he brings to his role, so the money can be maximized. They'll ignore the bulk of scientists to who tell us we are leaving an ecological mess for our children. They'll ignore the economist who tell us we are robbing the next 2-3 generations blind, because that's who's going to pay the tab for our deficits. They'll embrace hating immigrants - rejecting asylum seekers - and treating the rest of the world as "second-class humans." It's all fair game - as long as we can have the precious 3-5% sustained GDP growth.

              For all of the claims to be god fearing and god loving - mostly what I see is mammon loving.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                I still think what you did is whataboutism, even by your reasoning here. Mountain Man was commenting on leftists' tendency (right or wrong--irrelevant to my point) to credit Obama with good things and blame Bush for bad things. You responded by effectively changing the subject to the right doing the same thing in reverse. In other words, "what about this...."

                Now, to be clear, I don't actually have a problem with your post. Your post pointed out partisanship from the other side, AFAICT to underscore the fact that partisanship is a problem no matter what "side" it comes from. I agree with this, and I think your response was fine.

                All I'm saying is, by the standards of all the people frequently calling out whataboutism, I've seen them guilty of it plenty (using their own reasoning). It's unfair of me to dismiss posts like yours, which make IMO a valid counterpoint.
                You know - I'm going to reverse myself. What I said WAS whataboutism, because I didn't really say what I was thinking and expressed myself poorly.

                Here is the difference, to me.

                - Trump is a liar
                - What about Obama, huh?
                - Obama has nothing to do with Trump - you're engaging in "whataboutism."
                - No I'm not - I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of saying this about Trump and not saying the same about Obama

                Stop - right - there. This is the argument that usually takes form - and it is inapplicable. Why? Because the argument says, "the left is being hypocritical to criticize Trump and not do the same about Obama." The problem is, I'm not "the left." I'm Michel. It's not "the left" talking. It's Michel. So your argument about hypocrisy is applicable ONLY if you can show that Michel was talking out of both sides of his mouth. If I am criticizing Trump when I went to lengths to defend Obama - THEN the cry "hypocrisy" is valid. Otherwise, all that is happening is "whataboutism." It's an attempt to distract from a point I am making by a) diverting the discussion to a different person and/or b) saddling me with the guilt of an entire group that I am only marginally related to.

                I made my post about "the right" and (you are correct) walked right into "whataboutism." My thoughts were not about the right - they were about MM personally - who regularly engages in exactly the kind of behavior he was calling out: Obama is to blame - Trump is the hero - Obama gets fault - Trump gets credit and applause. So his post set my irony meter clanging - but my post was generic - hence - I acknowledge you correctly calling me on it.

                Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                Also WRT what is annoying and attributing emotion to you: wasn't my intent. Sorry if that's how I came across; I'm a lousy communicator sometimes.
                NP, Zym. You took the edge of my tongue on that because it happens here a LOT. I am regularly told how I am feeling and what my motivations are - and the vast majority of the time they are so far afield as to be unrecognizable. You are not a regular with respect to that, so my apologies for dumping accumulated irritation on you.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Oh my...

                  And are you completely blind to the "anything good is credited to Trump and everything bad blamed on Obama" dynamic from many (most?) on the right? I have to admit that this post of yours made my irony meter ring like a gong.
                  Your irony meter seems to be in need of servicing.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Your irony meter seems to be in need of servicing.
                    No - it's functioning well. And Zym was right that my response should have been more pointedly addressed to you. I find your post incredibly ironic given the nature of your posts relative to both Obama and Trump.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      So...there's the rub. In point of fact - Obama did a great deal to stimulate growth. That's what made the deficit soar, remember? Between direct support for struggling verticals, and increases in federal spending to stimulate the economy and derail deflation - a great deal was done. But Obama ALSO saw many regulations as important, and didn't hesitate to use them. Trump has reversed that, IMO, to all of our losses.
                      I'm not sure what Obama did to stimulate the economy beside the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which had negligible effect. And many of his regulations were not business friendly, not in the least.

                      You see, Seer, some of us DON'T think money and the economy are everything. The economy was recovering - jobs were returning - the stock market was doing well - AND we were seeing efforts made to reign in pollution - tackle CO2 emissions and possibly slow the global warming phenomenon - increase safety in the workplace - require financial institutions to be fiscally responsible and avoid another debacle like 2008-2010. If it means the economy grows a bit slower, or businesses make a bit less money - so be it. Some things are more important than money.
                      Well see, you are speaking of doing things to make the economy grow slower, just as Obama did. And I'm not on the CO2 bandwagon, at least I don't think that man is the most significant driver, though we do play a part. And I had no problem with the financial regulations, though that too slowed business growth.

                      But the Republican party (and most people I know on the right) seem to worship the almighty dollar above pretty much anything else. They seem to worship it so much, they'll put a man like Trump in the highest office in the land, turn a blind eye to his groping women, childish taunting, serial lying, vengeance seeking and all of the other non-Christian values he brings to his role, so the money can be maximized. They'll ignore the bulk of scientists to who tell us we are leaving an ecological mess for our children. They'll ignore the economist who tell us we are robbing the next 2-3 generations blind, because that's who's going to pay the tab for our deficits. They'll embrace hating immigrants - rejecting asylum seekers - and treating the rest of the world as "second-class humans." It's all fair game - as long as we can have the precious 3-5% sustained GDP growth.
                      Oh please Carp, now you are getting into personalities, not policies. Economic growth helps us solve these problems, see the link below, it is interesting and rational. And I have no problem with paying down the debt, but it seems to me that a robust economic growth would help there better than less robust growth. The government is taking in record taxes, see second link. And I don't need to mention the courts, which is my main concern. As far immigrants, let then come here legally like my grandparents did between 1899-1905. We take one million a year, and have consistently for years now. That is quite generous.

                      https://www.aier.org/article/there-a...ural-resources

                      https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...n-100b-deficit

                      For all of the claims to be god fearing and god loving - mostly what I see is mammon loving.
                      Like I said, if we can reverse Roe, or limit it, and save more of the unborn, that would be worth it. And you are virtue signaling again - look how wonderful you are compared to us money grabbing hypocritical Christians, when free markets have done more than any other system to raise men out of poverty and despair.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        No - it's functioning well. And Zym was right that my response should have been more pointedly addressed to you. I find your post incredibly ironic given the nature of your posts relative to both Obama and Trump.
                        You're still wielding a malfunctioning irony meter. I suppose I could ask you for examples, but I doubt I'll get anything beyond your vague sense that you must be correct.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I'm not sure what Obama did to stimulate the economy beside the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which had negligible effect. And many of his regulations were not business friendly, not in the least.

                          Well see, you are speaking of doing things to make the economy grow slower, just as Obama did. And I'm not on the CO2 bandwagon, at least I don't think that man is the most significant driver, though we do play a part. And I had no problem with the financial regulations, though that too slowed business growth.



                          Oh please Carp, now you are getting into personalities, not policies. Economic growth helps us solve these problems, see the link below, it is interesting and rational. And I have no problem with paying down the debt, but it seems to me that a robust economic growth would help there better than less robust growth. The government is taking in record taxes, see second link. And I don't need to mention the courts, which is my main concern. As far immigrants, let then come here legally like my grandparents did between 1899-1905. We take one million a year, and have consistently for years now. That is quite generous.

                          https://www.aier.org/article/there-a...ural-resources

                          https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...n-100b-deficit



                          Like I said, if we can reverse Roe, or limit it, and save more of the unborn, that would be worth it. And you are virtue signaling again - look how wonderful you are compared to us money grabbing hypocritical Christians, when free markets have done more than any other system to raise men out of poverty and despair.
                          I responded to all of this - and then my browser crashed and I lost it all. I don't have the time or energy to do it again - so I cede the floor. Suffice it to say, there are major holes in your argument. But I understand if you won't take that on my word...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            You're still wielding a malfunctioning irony meter. I suppose I could ask you for examples, but I doubt I'll get anything beyond your vague sense that you must be correct.
                            You are right that I am not going to go digging hunting for the posts. I'm not THAT invested in you. So you can take comfort in your rightness....

                            ETA: But you do have a path to proving me at least partially wrong. Simply post something that acknowledges an Obama contribution and cites a Trump failure. I've never seen either from your hands...
                            Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-14-2018, 04:28 PM.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I responded to all of this - and then my browser crashed and I lost it all. I don't have the time or energy to do it again - so I cede the floor. Suffice it to say, there are major holes in your argument. But I understand if you won't take that on my word...
                              Of course it crashed - it knew you were too wordy again!
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Of course it crashed - it knew you were too wordy again!
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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