What is Socialism?

[Sparko]

That's fair. And I'm pleased to hear that at least one conservative on this site actually understands the extent of diversity among socialists. Also, amusing factoid: Many scholars distinguish between Marx's own earlier views and his later views, so in that case Marx himself held at least 2 different views. (And that's not even counting the fact that many of those scholars tend to disagree with each other over exactly what Marx's views actually were... Marx is as bad as the Bible when it comes to two people reading it having different interpretations of the meaning of the text.)

But the amusing thing is that Sparko and Rogue seem to be Totally Sure Exactly What Socialism Is, and are telling it to the rest of us. Though their views do seem slightly different.

No just sure what socialism has always been. I am not telling you what you believe, I believe what you believe about socialism is a fantasy and has nothing to do with the reality of socialism as it has ever been implemented. Thus that cartoon I posted:

socialismfork.jpg

You are the guy with the fork in case you were wondering.

[Starlight]

Your sheer ignorance and foolishness is cute Sparko.

[Starlight]

I see this week China's been celebrating 40 years since its modern "reform era" began, during which time it went from poverty ridden to an economic powerhouse. I guess Communist countries can be good at economics after all. China's unparalleled meteoric economic rise was carefully managed by its communist government.

There are two other episodes in history I am aware of where countries made similarly rapid progress (but not for as lengthy time periods): The USSR ~1922-1937 as the communist government's economic policies massively ramped up its economy taking it from a poverty-stricken nation to an economic powerhouse that would challenge the US for world dominance in the decades that followed; and the US ~1941-1945 when FDR seized control of the economy to fight WWII and efficiently channeled the national production into war-time efforts.

It's... interesting... that those three greatest spikes of economic development in history share a common feature: Massive government involvement in the direction of the economic and guiding its development... which you keep labeling "socialism" Sparko. By your labeling, "socialism" looks suspiciously good for economic development.

[Sparko]

Your sheer ignorance and foolishness is cute Sparko.

Thanks. But I have the entirety of history behind me showing socialism as an abject failure and a human rights nightmare of totalitarianism and death.

But sure, go on and believe it just hasn't been done right yet.

[Sparko]

I see this week China's been celebrating 40 years since its modern "reform era" began, during which time it went from poverty ridden to an economic powerhouse. I guess Communist countries can be good at economics after all. China's unparalleled meteoric economic rise was carefully managed by its communist government.

There are two other episodes in history I am aware of where countries made similarly rapid progress (but not for as lengthy time periods): The USSR ~1922-1937 as the communist government's economic policies massively ramped up its economy taking it from a poverty-stricken nation to an economic powerhouse that would challenge the US for world dominance in the decades that followed; and the US ~1941-1945 when FDR seized control of the economy to fight WWII and efficiently channeled the national production into war-time efforts.

It's... interesting... that those three greatest spikes of economic development in history share a common feature: Massive government involvement in the direction of the economic and guiding its development... which you keep labeling "socialism" Sparko. By your labeling, "socialism" looks suspiciously good for economic development.

LOL. China has embraced Capitalism more and more, giving its citizens more ownership and autonomy. That is why it is a success. They learned from Hong Kong. But they still have a massive poverty problem with millions living in squalor.

And Russia, like China was totalitarian with Stalin murdering millions. He was as bad or worse than Hitler. Germany had a great economy under Hitler too, didn't it? not. And Russia basically just poured money into Military and used "slave labor" to accomplish everything they obtained. The citizens were oppressed, poor, and desperate to escape whenever they could.

That you would try to use Soviet Russia as an example of good socialism shows your depravity, Starlight.

[Cow Poke]

I see this week China's been celebrating 40 years since its modern "reform era" began, during which time it went from poverty ridden to an economic powerhouse. I guess Communist countries can be good at economics after all. China's unparalleled meteoric economic rise was carefully managed by its communist government.

Yeah, it's secret is to maintain the cover of communism, but embrace capitalism wherever possible, especially by stealing the intellectual property of others....

Yessirree, Bob, China is a TREMENDOUS model of how to do things!

[JimL]

LOL. China has embraced Capitalism more and more, giving its citizens more ownership and autonomy. That is why it is a success. They learned from Hong Kong. But they still have a massive poverty problem with millions living in squalor.

And Russia, like China was totalitarian with Stalin murdering millions. He was as bad or worse than Hitler. Germany had a great economy under Hitler too, didn't it? not. And Russia basically just poured money into Military and used "slave labor" to accomplish everything they obtained. The citizens were oppressed, poor, and desperate to escape whenever they could.

That you would try to use Soviet Russia as an example of good socialism shows your depravity, Starlight.

I believe you have a simplistic view of the Chinese economic system. It's a combination of capitalism and socialism, both aspects of which is why its been a successful economy.

[Sparko]

I believe you have a simplistic view of the Chinese economic system. It's a combination of capitalism and socialism, both aspects of which is why its been a successful economy.

Pull the other one!

[Sparko]

All you socialists, watch this.

Former KGB Yuri Bezmenov from 30 years ago.

[Terraceth]

Given the fact that China's strong economic recovery occurred due to it moving away from communism (indeed, communism was basically the reason China was in such bad shape before the reform era), I question if that can really be used as an example of successful communism.

[JimL]

Given the fact that China's strong economic recovery occurred due to it moving away from communism (indeed, communism was basically the reason China was in such bad shape before the reform era), I question if that can really be used as an example of successful communism.

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that communism is a good economic system. What the Chinese did was to combine certain aspects of capitalism along with with socialism. It's called a Social Market Economy. It seems that most of the world has come to understand that neither system is perfect in it's own right.

[Terraceth]

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that communism is a good economic system. What the Chinese did was to combine certain aspects of capitalism along with with socialism. It's called a Social Market Economy. It seems that most of the world has come to understand that neither system is perfect in it's own right.

Except the statement was:

"I guess Communist countries can be good at economics after all. China's unparalleled meteoric economic rise was carefully managed by its communist government."
(emphasis added)

But again, the point in which someone could say China was "good at economics" was exactly when it moved away from communism (despite whatever lip service the country may pay the idea of communism). Sure, it certainly didn't go full-on capitalist or anything, but it moved considerably in that direction. To describe it as "communist" during its economic growth when said economic growth occurred after a move away from communism seems rather off.

[Starlight]

Given the fact that China's strong economic recovery occurred due to it moving away from communism (indeed, communism was basically the reason China was in such bad shape before the reform era), I question if that can really be used as an example of successful communism.

I get a bit bored of these sort of No True Scotsman excuses from conservatives on this site.

When any country that's even nominally socialist is doing badly, e.g. Venezuela, then the conservatives seem sure that (1) they are definitely and totally socialist, even if no evidence of actual socialism can be provided; and (2) their doing badly is definitely and Totally Due To Their Socialism, even if no evidence of that can be provided.

When any country that's commonly labeled as socialist is doing well, e.g. China, then the conservatives seem sure that (1) they are definitely Not Socialist; and (2) their doing well is Totally Due To Capitalism.

The arguments at that point cease being interesting and just become an exercise in relabeling. This is one of many reasons why Sparko's cartoon is so retarded, as the many varieties of socialism across time and around the world have had many different positive and negative effects, and it's simply false to pretend it has never had good effects or always had bad ones.

[JimL]

Except the statement was:

"I guess Communist countries can be good at economics after all. China's unparalleled meteoric economic rise was carefully managed by its communist government."
(emphasis added)

But again, the point in which someone could say China was "good at economics" was exactly when it moved away from communism (despite whatever lip service the country may pay the idea of communism). Sure, it certainly didn't go full-on capitalist or anything, but it moved considerably in that direction. To describe it as "communist" during its economic growth when said economic growth occurred after a move away from communism seems rather off.

The U.S and many western democracy didn't go full on socialism either but they moved considerably in that direction.

[Sparko]

I don't think that anyone here is arguing that communism is a good economic system. What the Chinese did was to combine certain aspects of capitalism along with with socialism. It's called a Social Market Economy. It seems that most of the world has come to understand that neither system is perfect in it's own right.

And as a socialist state competing in the capitalist economy, they have the advantage of using what amounts to practically slave labor to maximize profits.

Apple Supplier Workers Describe Noxious Hazards at China Factory
At a Catcher Technology Co. manufacturing complex in the Chinese industrial city of Suqian, about six hours’ drive from Shanghai, workers stand for up to 10 hours a day in hot workshops slicing and blasting iPhone casings for Apple Inc., handling noxious chemicals sometimes without proper gloves or masks.

Goggles and earplugs are not always available, a problem when some factory machines are noisy and spray tiny metallic particles or coolant, according to Bloomberg interviews with workers. CLW said the noise was about 80 decibels or more. That’s roughly equivalent to an average factory or a garbage disposal, according to IAC Acoustics, an industrial noise-control specialist. Hundreds throng a workshop where the main door only opens about 12 inches. Off duty, they return to debris-strewn dorms bereft of showers or hot water. Many go without washing for days at a time, workers told Bloomberg.

“My hands turned bloodless white after a day of work,” said one of the workers, who makes a little over 4,000 yuan a month (just over $2 an hour) in her first job outside her home province of Henan.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rsh-conditions

That is something else I find ironic about you guys who on one hand keep complaining about the poor pay and jobs in capitalist America and wanting more socialism, but when you look at socialist countries, the jobs and job environment is always atrocious and worse than anything in the USA.