Clapper: Russia swung the election

[Charles]

It has a direct impact on the topic. Why was it wrong for Russia to try to influence our election but not wrong for Obama to influence other elections?

As has been pointed out to me by you guys several times, Whataboutism occurs when we try to excuse one action by saying what about another. I am not trying to excuse what the russians did, just wondering why what Obama did isn't just as wrong?

And what was illegal about Russia buying ads and making memes to influence the election?

Now IF Trump asked Russia to interfere on his behalf, that would be wrong and illegal. But there is no evidence of that.

This post is not about whether it was illegal but whether it happened.

Where did I say what Obama did was not wrong? It is off topic and the fact that you somehow seem to assume I support him or need to confront what he did says a lot about how deeply whataboutism is rooted in your line of thinking though I give you credit for not wanting to excuse the Russians.

[oxmixmudd]

You have proof that it did? Can you name someone? Or are you just guessing too?

You guys just can't quite grasp subtle distinctions, can you?

You were saying : Prove it changed 1 vote - i.e. find an instance that for sure it changed - with the conclusion that not finding one change vote implies no effect on the election.

I am saying is is preposterous to say not finding one CHANGED vote implies NO EFFECT.

Several have already admitted in previous posts that it can push people in a direction they are already leaning. IOW, it FIRES THEM UP.

So how does THAT affect the election. Simple - IT GETS MORE PEOPLE TO THE POLLS THAT ARE DISPOSED TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.



Jim

[Bill the Cat]

You guys just can't quite grasp subtle distinctions, can you?

You were saying : Prove it changed 1 vote - i.e. find an instance that for sure it changed - with the conclusion that not finding one change vote implies no effect on the election.

I am saying is is preposterous to say not finding one CHANGED vote implies NO EFFECT.

Several have already admitted in previous posts that it can push people in a direction they are already leaning. IOW, it FIRES THEM UP.

So how does THAT affect the election. Simple - IT GETS MORE PEOPLE TO THE POLLS THAT ARE DISPOSED TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.



Jim

People exercising their given rights??? The HORROR!!!!

[oxmixmudd]

People exercising their given rights??? The HORROR!!!!

And we're off in the weeds. The issue is no they are not exercising their rights. They have been manipulated with false information.

And the original reply was addressing the question of russian influence on the election, their impact on the 2016 vote.

If one side has been energized with false information from a foreign power, that is manipulation of the vote by that foreign power.

Jim

[Zymologist]

And we're off in the weeds. The issue is no they are not exercising their rights. They have been manipulated with false information.

And the original reply was addressing the question of russian influence on the election, their impact on the 2016 vote.

If one side has been energized with false information from a foreign power, that is manipulation of the vote by that foreign power.

Jim

Do you have any examples of the false information?

[Bill the Cat]

And we're off in the weeds. The issue is no they are not exercising their rights. They have been manipulated with false information.

But was it to the extent that they actually changed their minds on who to vote for? Unless you can actually prove THAT, then you are pissing in the wind.

And the original reply was addressing the question of russian influence on the election, their impact on the 2016 vote.

And I stand by my assessment that their "influence" was inconsequential.

If one side has been energized with false information from a foreign power, that is manipulation of the vote by that foreign power.

It doesn't matter if they were "energized" or not. They have a constitutional right to vote and they exercised it under no duress. Therefore, nothing illegal happened.

[Sparko]

But was it to the extent that they actually changed their minds on who to vote for? Unless you can actually prove THAT, then you are pissing in the wind.



And I stand by my assessment that their "influence" was inconsequential.



It doesn't matter if they were "energized" or not. They have a constitutional right to vote and they exercised it under no duress. Therefore, nothing illegal happened.

Funny how this whole thing about Russia went from "Trump is colluding with the Russians to steal the election!" to "The Russians swayed the election using memes!"

[oxmixmudd]

Do you have any examples of the false information?

Google. Here is one link. This has been all over the news for two years now. I am at a loss as to how to respond. Just look into it if you have any interest. It will not be hard to find information on it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...ection-n848746


Jim

[Zymologist]

Google. Here is one link. This has been all over the news for two years now. I am at a loss as to how to respond. Just look into it if you have any interest. It will not be hard to find information on it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...ection-n848746


Jim

I wasn't going to argue about it...it was purely a "for my information" question. Thank you.

[oxmixmudd]

Funny how this whole thing about Russia went from "Trump is colluding with the Russians to steal the election!" to "The Russians swayed the election using memes!"

It hasn't gone 'from' 'to'. We've known about this aspect of the Russian interference for quite some time now. Before Trump in fact. And it is not trivial. The simple fact is they targeted their efforts at getting Trump elected. One reason is simple. Putin hated Hillary. He wanted anyone but Hillary to win. And Russia has a history of recent escalation of interference with the elections of western democracies. We are not the only ones affected. And their goals are more than just to affect elections. They are to divide and introduce instabilities into those same western democracies, including our own.

The difference is that Trump supporters and Trump himself, so insecure and egocentric, always about Trump and not the welfare of our country and democracy, have hindered our capacity in the last two years to act more aggressively against it.

As for what if any direct involvement Trump has, we are still waiting for the results of the investigation. There were certainly a lot of ties, and a lot of people associated with Trump were involved with the Russians in ways that are bad for the country. But what is coming from the investigation as it relates to Trump is yet to be seen.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

I wasn't going to argue about it...it was purely a "for my information" question. Thank you.

Ah - then I apologize for being a bit terse in my response. Hard to know when something obvious is about to be argued to absurdity around here. I do try to react and not act, but in this case I didn't quite succeed.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

But was it to the extent that they actually changed their minds on who to vote for? Unless you can actually prove THAT, then you are pissing in the wind.

You are a bit slow aren't you Bill. I wan't arguing they changed peoples minds in droves. I was arguing that to argue the efforts did not affect the election is ridiculous. Do you understand the difference between affecting the outcome of an election and changing a specific persons vote. The outcome of an election can be effected by a number of ways that do not involve directly changing a specific persons vote.

OTOH, for people that are undecided, false information can sway them. And again, to assume not one of those sorts of people was not swayed by false information put out by Russians trying to interfere with the election is also ridiculous.

And I stand by my assessment that their "influence" was inconsequential.

Your 'assessment' is a biased opinion based on wishful thinking. What would be hard to believe would be that the Russians would be investing millions of dollars in efforts to undermine the elections of western democracies on wishful thinking or a lack of evidence it was effective. The fact is that money is a bargain. It is a very low cost - in the grand scheme of things - way to steer us and it costs us substantially more than they spend to try to counter it.

It doesn't matter if they were "energized" or not. They have a constitutional right to vote and they exercised it under no duress. Therefore, nothing illegal happened.

Who said anything about illegal? The Russians aren't forcing people to vote against their will. They are providing false information to try to persuade people to vote in ways that are advantageous to their interests. And they are providing false information they believe will cause division and turmoil in our democracy. And all Americans SHOULD be against that. It is incredibly disappointing to see people so devoted to one man that they are willing to diminish or even deny the seriousness of this sort of attack on our democracy.



Jim

[firstfloor]

Unless he has evidence that Russia changed a single vote, he's an idiot and his suspicions are conspiracy theory level garbage...

It is really that you are a puppet that dances to someone else’s tune. They know what music you like and they play it for you. That is how they pull you in the direction they want you to go. It is still a free vote but you have been influenced unwittingly by a foreign and malevolent power.

Mueller will explain it to you but you are conditioned to reject the message. The foreign agent owns Trump’s base.

[One Bad Pig]

It is really that you are a puppet that dances to someone else’s tune. They know what music you like and they play it for you. That is how they pull you in the direction they want you to go. It is still a free vote but you have been influenced unwittingly by a foreign and malevolent power.

Mueller will explain it to you but you are conditioned to reject the message. The foreign agent owns Trump’s base.

I appreciate it when you make your trolling so obvious.

[firstfloor]

I appreciate it when you make your trolling so obvious.

You see, it’s not about changing votes but motivating the baddies to come out to vote so that they outnumber the goodies. That and Gerrymandering the vote to favour the baddies and you’re done. That’s what happened in 2016 when the baddies responded so well, not to policy proposals, but to chants of “lock her up!”