Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314
Results 131 to 139 of 139

Thread: Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

  1. #131
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    New Zealand
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    8,121
    Amen (Given)
    2634
    Amen (Received)
    1585
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I wouldn't think so. I would say that dreaming is just the result of the functioning of the brain during sleep as opposed to how it functions while awake. The brain doesn't really sleep, or at least it remains relatively active during sleep.
    As a kid one dream I had several times just before waking was that my soul had been running around dreamworld and had to get back to my body fast because my body was waking up, so my soul would jump quickly onto the bed and stand where my feet were then quickly fall over backward into my body... I would wake up with a bounce as if I'd actually fallen backward onto the bed and then bounced forward... was a very weird sensation that stood out to me which is why I still remember decades later.

    For all I know, perhaps my dream was actually what was really happened and 'souls' do go for a wander...

  2. #132
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,327
    Amen (Given)
    4796
    Amen (Received)
    3052
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    That's not an answer to my question. Shall I take it you don't have one?
    It's such a stupid question it doesn't deserve an answer.

  3. #133
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,658
    Amen (Given)
    1322
    Amen (Received)
    1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    It's such a stupid question it doesn't deserve an answer.
    Whether it deserves an answer or not, I think the truth is that you are just at a loss for one. Surely you can explain why you, you know, your soul, can't just leave the house for a while.

  4. #134
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,773
    Amen (Given)
    2302
    Amen (Received)
    1614
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Whether it deserves an answer or not, I think the truth is that you are just at a loss for one. Surely you can explain why you, you know, your soul, can't just leave the house for a while.
    That's pretty well what supposedly happens during NDE's, but these are all anecdotal and unsupported by verified evidence.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #135
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,773
    Amen (Given)
    2302
    Amen (Received)
    1614
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't know. My guess is that what you call the mind being "severy diminished" isn't actually the mind being diminished per se, but simply the brain not being able to communicate with the mind properly due to brain damage. If this is true then the "diminished" mind (which if my guess is true isn't "diminished" at all, but "simply" a mind that is unable to access information from the brain it had previously been able to) is what survives the death off the brain. Whether or not the mind is then restored to a "pre-diminished" state after death is something I also don't know.
    Your speculations depend entirely on the unevidenced assumption that the ‘mind’ is a separate entity from the brain, i.e. you are begging the question.

    It's irrelevant, because whatever the case might be with other hominoids, or human predecessors a simple analysis of your own mind clearly shows that it's immaterial.
    All sentient creatures have consciousness, perception, thinking, judgment, memory and communicate to a greater or lesser degree; these attributes are all qualities of the mind. We are just more intelligent examples of creatures with a mind.

    There are cases where absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is not one of those cases, unless you can give a probable explanation as to why it is that we should have scientific evidence of a mind surviving the death of the body when per definition of the word "immaterial" there would be no way of detecting an immaterial mind that is no longer connected to a physical body with any sort of scientific equipment. The only potential way to "see" these disembodied minds would be through ways that would not be admissible as scientific evidence, such as clarvoyance (which I'm not saying even exists in the first place), or God opening your eyes and revealing them to you.
    Again, you are begging the question. See above.

    Again, due to the very definition of immaterial we shouldn't expect to have any scientific evidence of the mind existing without the brain. It's not a question that can be answered with science.
    This is merely a theological presupposition, not an argument.

    If it doesn't show that there is any more than that there is a connection/relationship then it follows that it doesn't show that the minds existence is dependent on the existence of the brain.
    What it shows is that there is a “connection/relationship”, between the brain and the mind. It shows nothing more than that because there is no evidence that there IS any more than that.

    Depends on what you mean by separate. It's clearly separate in the sense that it's a different entity from the brain, and is not material (for the reasons I laid out in my previous post). Whether or not you believe it can exist separately from the brain is another question, and your answer to that question ultimately comes down to presupposition.
    It’s not a different entity from the brain; it is what the brain does.
    Last edited by Tassman; Yesterday at 10:58 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. #136
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,658
    Amen (Given)
    1322
    Amen (Received)
    1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    That's pretty well what supposedly happens during NDE's, but these are all anecdotal and unsupported by verified evidence.
    Yep, the interesting thing is that NDE's is the only time it supposedly happens. I mean, they believe that they are fundamentally immaterial souls that are separate from the material body, but yet they believe they are somehow imprisoned by that material body.

  7. #137
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    42,765
    Amen (Given)
    4027
    Amen (Received)
    19524
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, of course I do not believe that. As you know, I do not believe that their is a distinct mind, or soul as you would have it, that is separate from the brain and physical body, so even should there be a way to upload information somehow gleaned from your brain into a computer, it wouldn't be you living for ever, just like a doppleganger, i.e. an exact replica of you, in another universe say, would not be you.
    But would it think it was you?

  8. #138
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    42,765
    Amen (Given)
    4027
    Amen (Received)
    19524
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    How about if we could extend that idea and upload 1000 physical bodies, or a million, with the same neural patterns? They might think alike, but I wouldn't say they were the same person/mind.
    But if a copy of a mind could run on a computer and think and be conscious, then that is proof that the mind is not just the brain operating. It is something more.

  9. #139
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,327
    Amen (Given)
    4796
    Amen (Received)
    3052
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Your speculations depend entirely on the unevidenced assumption that the ‘mind’ is a separate entity from the brain, i.e. you are begging the question.
    I have not been begging the question in this discussion anymore than what you have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    All sentient creatures have consciousness, perception, thinking, judgment, memory and communicate to a greater or lesser degree; these attributes are all qualities of the mind. We are just more intelligent examples of creatures with a mind.
    I'm not going to argue with you about this specific issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Again, you are begging the question. See above.
    Again, if what I'm doing is begging the question then you've been doing the same thing since the start of our discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    This is merely a theological presupposition, not an argument.
    No, it follows logically from what immaterial means. If something is detectable by the senses or through scientific equipment it's by definition not immaterial. And if there is no way to detect something using the aforementioned then the question of it's existence is not even in principle answerable by science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    What it shows is that there is a “connection/relationship”, between the brain and the mind. It shows nothing more than that because there is no evidence that there IS any more than that.
    But the fact that there is no more (scientific) evidence for the mind surviving the death of the brain doesn't really mean anything, for the reasons I've already stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    It’s not a different entity from the brain; it is what the brain does.
    There you go, doing that thing you're accusing me of, what did you call it again...?




    Ah yes, begging the question.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •