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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I am not making sense? How can you show a picture of something immaterial?

    Yet you should be able to easily show a picture of something that is material. So you and Tassy get to it.
    A mental image, is not an actual picture. When you say that you can see an object, it means that your eyes are fixated on that object. You don't have eyes inside your head, you are not seeing the mental image, you are imagining it. If, as seer contends, he can see the picture of his mother, but that if I opened up his head I wouldn't be able to see the same picture, that should tell you that it isn't a picture. A mental image of seers mother is not a picture in the brain, it's a replication of the pattern of brain activity that previously occured when acually looking at his mother. He isn't understanding what he means by "seeing."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      A mental image, is not an actual picture. When you say that you can see an object, it means that your eyes are fixated on that object. You don't have eyes inside your head, you are not seeing the mental image, you are imagining it. If, as seer contends, he can see the picture of his mother, but that if I opened up his head I wouldn't be able to see the same picture, that should tell you that it isn't a picture. A mental image of seers mother is not a picture in the brain, it's a replication of the pattern of brain activity that previously occured when acually looking at his mother. He isn't understanding what he means by "seeing."

      Jim does the picture (or mental image) exist? Can anyone else see it? And why can't anyone else see it? We can see the neural activity but we can not see what it produces.
      Last edited by seer; 12-13-2018, 11:07 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        A mental image, is not an actual picture. When you say that you can see an object, it means that your eyes are fixated on that object. You don't have eyes inside your head, you are not seeing the mental image, you are imagining it. If, as seer contends, he can see the picture of his mother, but that if I opened up his head I wouldn't be able to see the same picture, that should tell you that it isn't a picture. A mental image of seers mother is not a picture in the brain, it's a replication of the pattern of brain activity that previously occured when acually looking at his mother. He isn't understanding what he means by "seeing."
        So you are saying that a mental image is not physical? That the mind is immaterial?

        Tassy and you have both said the mind is material. So show me a photo then. If I look at a photo of a brain, am I seeing a photo of a mind that is imagining it's mother? How is that photo different from a brain that just died? Or is thinking of something else?

        Let's go back to software for a minute.

        If you are playing World of Warcraft, and I take a photo of your computer, am I taking a photo of say, Kalimdor? Is Kalimdor a physical place? Or does it only exist in software as a program? And can that same program be moved to a different CPU and still be the same program and virtual world of Kalimdor? Even though a software program can be broken down into electrical signals passing through a CPU, those signals are not the world of Kalimdor, That only exists in the overall software 'universe' - but you can move around in it, interact with it, talk to other people. But it is all immaterial.

        So is Theologyweb. The words you are reading right now only exist in a virtual world, as displayed on your monitor. There is no physical place called Theologyweb, no real thread. Just bits flowing through several computers. And yet to you, it is a real place and discussion that you can interact with. It is more than just the bits flipping on and off.

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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          You and JimL need to huddle up and get your story straight.
          No, we’re both in agreement that the ‘mind’ is not a separate entity from the material brain; one cannot exist without the other. My position is that IF the mind is transferred to a computer, the computer would need to replicate the brain’s activity. Because a 'mind' is the brain in action...no brain, no mind.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            So you are saying that a mental image is not physical? That the mind is immaterial?
            No, I'm saying the mental image is an illusion. There is no picture of your mom on a screen in your brain somewhere. There are no pictures in the brain, there are patterns of brain activity.
            Tassy and you have both said the mind is material.
            Well, actually, what I said, is that the mind is the brain, ergo it is material. Not that the mind is a material thing in and of itself.

            So show me a photo then.
            A photo of the brain. You've never seen a brain?
            If I look at a photo of a brain, am I seeing a photo of a mind that is imagining it's mother? How is that photo different from a brain that just died? Or is thinking of something else?
            One is functioning, and the other is not. But you wouldn't know the difference in either case.
            Let's go back to software for a minute.

            If you are playing World of Warcraft, and I take a photo of your computer, am I taking a photo of say, Kalimdor? Is Kalimdor a physical place? Or does it only exist in software as a program? And can that same program be moved to a different CPU and still be the same program and virtual world of Kalimdor? Even though a software program can be broken down into electrical signals passing through a CPU, those signals are not the world of Kalimdor, That only exists in the overall software 'universe' - but you can move around in it, interact with it, talk to other people. But it is all immaterial.

            So is Theologyweb. The words you are reading right now only exist in a virtual world, as displayed on your monitor. There is no physical place called Theologyweb, no real thread. Just bits flowing through several computers. And yet to you, it is a real place and discussion that you can interact with. It is more than just the bits flipping on and off.
            I think you are assuming that a brain functions exactly like a computer. The computer screen, which is external, we see with our eyes. Where do you think the picture, the mental image that exists only in your brain is, and with what eyes are you viewing it?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              And there is no good reason to suppose that it won't survive the death of the brain either, so either you presuppose that one or the other is the truth, or you stay agnostic about it. But don't pretend like you have any more support for your belief than I have for mine, because you most certainly do not.
              There is every “good reason’ to suppose that the mind won't survive the death of the brain, namely there’s no evidence for it. Conversely, there is ample evidence that an altered brain state results in an altered state of mind, hence an obvious connection between the two.

              No, my reluctance to address this ridiculous red herring of yours indicates no such thing. I simply don't know how our minds differ qualitatively from other sentient creatures. It's as simple as that. Maybe other sentient creatures have immaterial minds that survive the death of their brains, maybe they don't. It doesn't matter one way or the other.

              So for the last time, before I start ignoring this particular pet peeve of yours. I neither affirm, nor deny, that homo sapiens are unique among sentient creatures.
              There’s no need for reluctance in addressing this because there isn't any reason to suppose Homo sapiens are unique or different in kind to other sentient creatures.

              Your claim that the mind is just a material entity is begging the question.
              Nope! There is no credible evidence that the mind is more than the material brain in action. Conversely, there is abundant evidence that brain damage affects the mind with the obvious corollary of a direct link between the two.

              This doesn't even make the slightest sense. In what way is the statement that the mind is aware of itself a subjective claim?
              You being aware of yourself is a subjective statement not an objective one.

              Only to someone who already believes that the mind is just "a functional aspect of the material brain", e.g. someone who is begging the question.
              Not at all, if part of the brain is removed or damaged, the mind is affected. Experts can even predict how and in what way it will be affected. This is an example of ‘mind’ being just a functional aspect of the material brain.

              All this tells me is that I'm right in believing that your claims are completely bereft of evidence and that your whole case is built upon the begged question that materialism is true. Which comes as no surprise to literally anyone who are aware of your debating tactics.
              I’ve provided the evidence; namely that the mind is directly affected by the state of the brain...sometimes adversely. Conversely you have provided no evidence to support your assertion that the mind is a separate entity from the brain and that it can survive the cessation of brain activity.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                No, I'm saying the mental image is an illusion. There is no picture of your mom on a screen in your brain somewhere. There are no pictures in the brain, there are patterns of brain activity.
                Are illusions material JimL? And there has to be something self-aware to recognize the illusion and contemplate it. And that something is your mind.


                Well, actually, what I said, is that the mind is the brain, ergo it is material. Not that the mind is a material thing in and of itself.
                So the mind is immaterial then?


                A photo of the brain. You've never seen a brain?

                One is functioning, and the other is not. But you wouldn't know the difference in either case.
                So if you can't tell the difference by a photo, then how is the mind material?

                I think you are assuming that a brain functions exactly like a computer. The computer screen, which is external, we see with our eyes. Where do you think the picture, the mental image that exists only in your brain is, and with what eyes are you viewing it?
                I never said it functions exactly like a computer JimL.

                It is an analogy. That the software virtual world is more than the CPU. It is an immaterial thing that is generated by the computer. A virtual world where people can interact with each other and various objects in it. The world is immaterial. It can be run on various cpus, and still be the same immaterial virtual world. It can even run on different platforms, computers, phones, consoles, etc. The software is not the hardware. Any first year electronics student knows that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  I think you are assuming that a brain functions exactly like a computer. The computer screen, which is external, we see with our eyes. Where do you think the picture, the mental image that exists only in your brain is, and with what eyes are you viewing it?
                  Right Jim, the mental picture of your mother is immaterial, yet it exists. And you are viewing it in your immaterial mind.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right Jim, the mental picture of your mother is immaterial, yet it exists. And you are viewing it in your immaterial mind.


                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Sparko aren't you tired of doing this:

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I can't help myself...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I can't help myself...


                        [the picture only exists in your mind]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Right Jim, the mental picture of your mother is immaterial, yet it exists. And you are viewing it in your immaterial mind.
                          And how are you seeing the mental image inside your head seer? Is there a movie screen in there, is there a set of eyes to see it with?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            And how are you seeing the mental image inside your head seer? Is there a movie screen in there, is there a set of eyes to see it with?
                            No there is not, that is why it is immaterial.

                            Hey Jim, imagine your mother dressed up as Trump. Got that in your head? OK now since you never ever saw that and you did not have a memory of it until I asked you to create it, where did that image come from and how are you seeing it in your mind?
                            Last edited by Sparko; 12-14-2018, 10:15 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Are illusions material JimL? And there has to be something self-aware to recognize the illusion and contemplate it. And that something is your mind.
                              They are patterns of brain activity which is why if you could actually see your brain, that is all you would see.


                              So the mind is immaterial then?
                              No.


                              So if you can't tell the difference by a photo, then how is the mind material?
                              Because the mind is the brain, not a thing in its own right. When you look at a brain you can't see what we call the mind, because the mind is just an aspect of the physical brain, it's what the brain does.

                              I never said it functions exactly like a computer JimL.
                              Ok, good, so we agree it's a bad analogy.
                              It is an analogy. That the software virtual world is more than the CPU. It is an immaterial thing that is generated by the computer. A virtual world where people can interact with each other and various objects in it. The world is immaterial. It can be run on various cpus, and still be the same immaterial virtual world. It can even run on different platforms, computers, phones, consoles, etc. The software is not the hardware. Any first year electronics student knows that.
                              Exactly what are you claiming to be immaterial here?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                No there is not, that is why it is immaterial.
                                Right, there is no screen, there are no eyes, there is just a physical brain, so how do you suppose you are seeing an actual picture?
                                Hey Jim, imagine your mother dressed up as Trump. Got that in your head? OK now since you never ever saw that and you did not have a memory of it until I asked you to create it, where did that image come from and how are you seeing it in your mind?
                                I've obviously seen both my mother and unfortunately Trump. We can put together patterns of brain activity with respect to all aspects of the world to come up with an mental image.
                                Last edited by JimL; 12-14-2018, 10:45 AM.

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