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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

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  • Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

    Those who are against substance dualism claim that there are conceptual difficulties with the idea that an immaterial mind can interact with a physical body.

    The following is a quote from the IEP about dualism:
    "Since the mind is, on the Cartesian model, immaterial and unextended, it can have no size, shape, location, mass, motion or solidity. How then can minds act on bodies? What sort of mechanism could convey information of the sort bodily movement requires, between ontologically autonomous realms? To suppose that non-physical minds can move bodies is like supposing that imaginary locomotives can pull real boxcars."

    The article is located here: https://www.iep.utm.edu/dualism/#SH7c

    How do you respond that to this claim?

  • #2
    The brain is the mind/body interface.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hornet View Post
      Those who are against substance dualism claim that there are conceptual difficulties with the idea that an immaterial mind can interact with a physical body.

      The following is a quote from the IEP about dualism:
      "Since the mind is, on the Cartesian model, immaterial and unextended, it can have no size, shape, location, mass, motion or solidity. How then can minds act on bodies? What sort of mechanism could convey information of the sort bodily movement requires, between ontologically autonomous realms? To suppose that non-physical minds can move bodies is like supposing that imaginary locomotives can pull real boxcars."

      The article is located here: https://www.iep.utm.edu/dualism/#SH7c

      How do you respond that to this claim?
      A couple of things, I think John Carew Eccles did some good work on dualist-interactionism. Though it has been a while since I looked into this. William Hasker suggested emergent dualism where the mind is an emergent property of the physical brain and has a looping effect on the brain. More over it is not important to answer this question, why should we look to science to answer such a thing? Then there is the question of definitions - what is material? Immaterial? Perhaps immaterial is physical in a way we do not understand or never will.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
        Those who are against substance dualism claim that there are conceptual difficulties with the idea that an immaterial mind can interact with a physical body.

        The following is a quote from the IEP about dualism:
        "Since the mind is, on the Cartesian model, immaterial and unextended, it can have no size, shape, location, mass, motion or solidity. How then can minds act on bodies? What sort of mechanism could convey information of the sort bodily movement requires, between ontologically autonomous realms? To suppose that non-physical minds can move bodies is like supposing that imaginary locomotives can pull real boxcars."

        The article is located here: https://www.iep.utm.edu/dualism/#SH7c

        How do you respond that to this claim?
        I would respond that even if I don't understand the "mechanism" that allows a soul to control a physical body I would still be justified in believing in the existence of immaterial minds. It simply isn't a problem that's serious enough that it would warrant questioning my belief in mind-body dualism.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          The brain is the mind/body interface.
          Why should the brain be the only complex physical object in the universe to have an interface with another realm of being? The mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Why should the brain be the only complex physical object in the universe to have an interface with another realm of being? The mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system.
            Nothing of the sort has been shown to be the case yet.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              The brain is the mind/body interface.
              That is not even an answer, it's just the assertion of the belief that's in dispute here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Nothing of the sort has been shown to be the case yet.
                Except for the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  A couple of things, I think John Carew Eccles did some good work on dualist-interactionism. Though it has been a while since I looked into this. William Hasker suggested emergent dualism where the mind is an emergent property of the physical brain and has a looping effect on the brain. More over it is not important to answer this question, why should we look to science to answer such a thing? Then there is the question of definitions - what is material? Immaterial? Perhaps immaterial is physical in a way we do not understand or never will.
                  Nervous systems emerged seer, they became more and more complex over millions of years, not more and more immaterial.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    Nothing of the sort has been shown to be the case yet.
                    To date many processes that at one time were considered supernatural have given way to a physical scientific understanding, e.g. the “miracle” of reproduction is now well understood via the intricacies of molecular biology. Why should the mind/soul be an exception? All indications are that it can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system? This is surely a more likely explanation than claiming ‘god did it’ when there’s not a shred in evidence that this is the case.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      A couple of things, I think John Carew Eccles did some good work on dualist-interactionism. Though it has been a while since I looked into this. William Hasker suggested emergent dualism where the mind is an emergent property of the physical brain and has a looping effect on the brain. More over it is not important to answer this question, why should we look to science to answer such a thing? Then there is the question of definitions - what is material? Immaterial? Perhaps immaterial is physical in a way we do not understand or never will.
                      How does Hasker explain how an immaterial soul can arise from a material brain.

                      Material means made of matter and immaterial means not made of matter.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                        How does Hasker explain how an immaterial soul can arise from a material brain.

                        Material means made of matter and immaterial means not made of matter.
                        It is rather funny actually. Seer argues vehemently against the idea that rational minds can emerge from the irrational matter, but he's fine with the idea of immaterial minds emerging from the material/matter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The interaction problem between the soul and the body is that since the soul is not spatially extended, it cannot interact with something that is spatially extended.

                          My response to the interaction problem is that not everything is caused in the same way. The soul does not cause things to happen in the same way that a physical object causes things to happen. When a physical object interacts with another physical object, pieces of matter come in contact with other pieces of matter. They hit each other or collide with each other. An immaterial soul interacts with a physical body by being present with that body and by exerting its influence on the body. If one has good, independent reasons for believing that people have souls, then he is justified in believing that people have souls even if he cannot describe the exact procedure that the soul uses to interact with the body.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            It is rather funny actually. Seer argues vehemently against the idea that rational minds can emerge from the irrational matter, but he's fine with the idea of immaterial minds emerging from the material/matter.
                            Well you've go to fit God into it somehow, Jim, that's what it's all about. <sarcasm>
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                              How does Hasker explain how an immaterial soul can arise from a material brain.

                              Material means made of matter and immaterial means not made of matter.
                              He would say it is something like a magnetic field (mind/soul) around a magnet (brain). And I'm not sure about definitions, is gravity material or immaterial? Is it made up of matter? None that we know of. But again Hornet, why do we have to demonstrate how something works before we believe it is true?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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