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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    It is rather funny actually. Seer argues vehemently against the idea that rational minds can emerge from the irrational matter, but he's fine with the idea of immaterial minds emerging from the material/matter.
    Wrong Jim, since in both cases God is the author of both minds and rationality.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Wrong Jim, since in both cases God is the author of both minds and rationality.
      Seer, your argument has for a long time now been that it is illogical to believe that rational minds can emerge from irrational matter, but you then argue that you believe in emergent immaterial "rational" minds, immaterial 'rational" minds that emerge from irrational matter. Can't have it both ways my friend. If your argument now is going to be that "well, true, it is illogical, but god can do it, god can make immaterial "rational" minds emerge from irrational matter, well, then, god could also cause material "rational" minds emerge from irrational matter. But then of course there is no reason to bring god into the picture, because if it's material, then it's material and the process is an evolutionary one so needs no external force to direct it. In other words your argument has always been a contradiction in logic.
      Last edited by JimL; 11-19-2018, 09:42 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Why should the brain be the only complex physical object in the universe to have an interface with another realm of being? The mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system.
        Who said the mind is another realm of being?

        Your mind uses the brain to tell your body what to do. You think you want to move your arm and your brain tells your arm to move and your arm moves. Unless you don't believe in conscious thought and free will. Then your arm just moves for no reason at all and you are just a mechanical doll.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          That is not even an answer, it's just the assertion of the belief that's in dispute here.
          Clearly you are out of your depth here, JimL. You would need a mind in order to understand what it does.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Seer, your argument has for a long time now been that it is illogical to believe that rational minds can emerge from irrational matter, but you then argue that you believe in emergent immaterial "rational" minds, immaterial 'rational" minds that emerge from irrational matter.
            Jim don't be dense, I don't believe that the physical brain is non-rational, since it was created by a rational God. Therefore your whole argument fails since the emergent mind is not being produced by a non-rational source.

            If your argument now is going to be that "well, true, it is illogical, but god can do it, god can make immaterial "rational" minds emerge from irrational matter, well, then, god could also cause material "rational" minds emerge from irrational matter.
            What are you taking about? Nothing I said was illogical...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Jim don't be dense, I don't believe that the physical brain is non-rational, since it was created by a rational God. Therefore your whole argument fails since the emergent mind is not being produced by a non-rational source.



              What are you taking about? Nothing I said was illogical...
              Ah, so now you believe that the physical brain is itself a rational thinking thing in its own right? Very good, you're coming around seer.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Ah, so now you believe that the physical brain is itself a rational thinking thing in its own right? Very good, you're coming around seer.
                Jim, it is not in its own right. Any more than a computer is rational in its own right, it had to be designed to be rational. I don't believe that the non-rational forces of nature could create a rational functioning calculator, never mind something much more complicated like the human brain.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Jim, it is not in its own right. Any more than a computer is rational in its own right, it had to be designed to be rational. I don't believe that the non-rational forces of nature could create a rational functioning calculator, never mind something much more complicated like the human brain.
                  This is Jim's way of avoiding giving you a logical argument like you asked for.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Jim, it is not in its own right. Any more than a computer is rational in its own right, it had to be designed to be rational. I don't believe that the non-rational forces of nature could create a rational functioning calculator, never mind something much more complicated like the human brain.
                    A computer must be programmed to be rational just as we are biological computers—designed by natural selection, built through genetics, and programmed by the environment.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Jim, it is not in its own right. Any more than a computer is rational in its own right, it had to be designed to be rational. I don't believe that the non-rational forces of nature could create a rational functioning calculator, never mind something much more complicated like the human brain.
                      Yes, I know, you don't believe what you can see with your own eyes like the evolution of the human nervous system out of the non-rational forces of nature, but somehow you believe in things that you can't see and for which there is no evidence. We are living proof that rational minds can be created by the non rational forces of nature, because we are a part of that nature. What nature does is create the senses of experience and the rational mind is a natural spinoff of that.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Yes, I know, you don't believe what you can see with your own eyes like the evolution of the human nervous system out of the non-rational forces of nature, but somehow you believe in things that you can't see and for which there is no evidence. We are living proof that rational minds can be created by the non rational forces of nature, because we are a part of that nature. What nature does is create the senses of experience and the rational mind is a natural spinoff of that.
                        Hey Jim, I never saw the human the evolution of the human nervous system and neither did you. Or anyone.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Hey Jim, I never saw the human the evolution of the human nervous system and neither did you. Or anyone.
                          You never saw the divine creation of the human nervous system and God's implantation of a soul either. But there is good reason to think that the mind and consciousness evolved as a neurological function of the brain and nervous system rather than your 'god did it' scenario, for which there's no substantive evidence at all.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Hey Jim, I never saw the human the evolution of the human nervous system and neither did you. Or anyone.
                            Perhaps not directly, but if you bothered to look you would directly observe the evidence of the evolution of lifes nervous system and the human brain from out of the non-rational forces of nature. All you are doing is saying that yes, nature does that, it creates rational minds from out of its irrational substance, but it only does it because it is somehow programed by an actual mind to do so. That is simply an argument from incredulity. You just simply can't believe your eyes.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Perhaps not directly, but if you bothered to look you would directly observe the evidence of the evolution of lifes nervous system and the human brain from out of the non-rational forces of nature. All you are doing is saying that yes, nature does that, it creates rational minds from out of its irrational substance, but it only does it because it is somehow programed by an actual mind to do so. That is simply an argument from incredulity. You just simply can't believe your eyes.
                              I have no idea what that means. You can not and did not directly observe how the forces of nature created the nervous system. What you do see is how these systems are acted on by natural forces in various ways, not how these systems were created in the first place... So you have no idea if non-rational, non-conscious forces could or did create rational, conscious beings... But you have faith that they did...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I have no idea what that means. You can not and did not directly observe how the forces of nature created the nervous system. What you do see is how these systems are acted on by natural forces in various ways, not how these systems were created in the first place... So you have no idea if non-rational, non-conscious forces could or did create rational, conscious beings... But you have faith that they did...
                                It can be inferred from observation and induction that it is highly probable that the mind and consciousness evolved as a neurological function of the brain and nervous system. This is more probable than positing, without good evidence, a supernatural explanation. This is no more than an ‘argument from ignorance’.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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