Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I have no idea what that means. You can not and did not directly observe how the forces of nature created the nervous system. What you do see is how these systems are acted on by natural forces in various ways, not how these systems were created in the first place... So you have no idea if non-rational, non-conscious forces could or did create rational, conscious beings... But you have faith that they did...
    seer, you yourself have argued that you believe the soul or rational mind to be an emergent property of matter, which is the same as to say that you believe the rational mind to be a creation of the non-rational forces of nature. You come to this conclusion, obviously, because you are aware that the nervous system evolved over time until after a very long process developed into a very complex organ we call the brain, the functions of which we call the mind.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      seer, you yourself have argued that you believe the soul or rational mind to be an emergent property of matter, which is the same as to say that you believe the rational mind to be a creation of the non-rational forces of nature. You come to this conclusion, obviously, because you are aware that the nervous system evolved over time until after a very long process developed into a very complex organ we call the brain, the functions of which we call the mind.
      No Jim, I did not believe that the rational mind is a creation of the non-rational forces of nature. I believe that rational mind is the creation of a Rational Mind (God). Whether God used a guided evolutionary process or not is immaterial. It still would not be nature doing this on her own... How many millions years Jim do you think it would take for nature to create a working calculator? Or even a simple abacus? To ask the question proves the absurdity. Yet you think nature could and did create something infinitely more complex and rational, the human mind.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        No Jim, I did not believe that the rational mind is a creation of the non-rational forces of nature. I believe that rational mind is the creation of a Rational Mind (God). Whether God used a guided evolutionary process or not is immaterial. It still would not be nature doing this on her own... How many millions years Jim do you think it would take for nature to create a working calculator? Or even a simple abacus? To ask the question proves the absurdity. Yet you think nature could and did create something infinitely more complex and rational, the human mind.
        Well, again, you're suggesting that the rational mind is material, an emergent property of matter, that this property of matter emerged as a result of millions of years of evolution. The only difference between you and the materialist is that, for no good reason, other than to support your religious agenda, you are adding an immaterial mind to the equation as an external designer of that material process. If your theory differs from that which I laid out then please explain what exactly you mean by defining the mind as an emergent property.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Well, again, you're suggesting that the rational mind is material, an emergent property of matter, that this property of matter emerged as a result of millions of years of evolution. The only difference between you and the materialist is that, for no good reason, other than to support your religious agenda, you are adding an immaterial mind to the equation as an external designer of that material process. If your theory differs from that which I laid out then please explain what exactly you mean by defining the mind as an emergent property.
          Jim, that is not what I said. If the mind is an emergent property of the brain then the question is why, how? How would nature (which is material) created something that is immaterial (the mind)? How/why would something that is non-rational, non-self aware create something that is rational and self aware? Tacking on the words "millions of years" to the problem does not answer these questions. BTW - Happy Thanksgiving bro!
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Jim, that is not what I said. If the mind is an emergent property of the brain then the question is why, how?
            How? In the same way the mind "emerged" among all the sentient, conscious creatures. There is no reason to think humans are unique in this regard. Obviously the mind and consciousness evolved as a neurological function of the brain and nervous system. How else?

            How would nature (which is material) created something that is immaterial (the mind)? How/why would something that is non-rational, non-self aware create something that is rational and self aware? Tacking on the words "millions of years" to the problem does not answer these questions.
            More to the point, how does your hypothesised immaterial entity "emerge" and interact with a material entity such as the brain? How can the problems with the supposed interaction at a dualistic interface be overcome? The concept is logically incoherent.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Jim, that is not what I said. If the mind is an emergent property of the brain then the question is why, how? How would nature (which is material) created something that is immaterial (the mind)?
              Well, the simple answer is that it doesn't, the mind is the brain, it is not some immaterial entity interacting with the material brain. We materialists would define the mind as the function of the brain, in other words we would say that the mind is what the brain does. It's a way of distinguishing the material object itself from what the material object does.

              How/why would something that is non-rational, non-self aware create something that is rational and self aware? Tacking on the words "millions of years" to the problem does not answer these questions.
              Why does a non-rational flower lean in the direction of the sun?

              BTW - Happy Thanksgiving bro!
              Great day, thanks. Hope your's was as well.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Well, the simple answer is that it doesn't, the mind is the brain, it is not some immaterial entity interacting with the material brain. We materialists would define the mind as the function of the brain, in other words we would say that the mind is what the brain does. It's a way of distinguishing the material object itself from what the material object does.
                Of course the mind is immaterial, as Sparko has pointed out - with questions which you did not answer.


                Why does a non-rational flower lean in the direction of the sun?
                Because it was created by a Rational mind?

                Great day, thanks. Hope your's was as well.
                I ate way too much!
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Of course the mind is immaterial, as Sparko has pointed out - with questions which you did not answer.
                  Well, that's just silly talk. Most of us realize at an early age that there is really no such thing as ghosts. And even if there were, you'd end up trying to make sense of the same problem your dealing with now, i.e. how does the ghost do it, how does its mind work, does the immaterial ghost have an immaterial mind, does it's immaterial thoughts flutter about in space as things in themselves? Sparko can claim anything, but unless he has evidence to back up his claim of the existence of an immaterial realm and immaterially existing Info and thoughts, then the claim has little relevance.


                  Because it was created by a Rational mind?
                  Wrong. That is your claim when it comes to rational minds, i.e. that they are rational because they came from that which is rational, but the flower is not rational.

                  I ate way too much!
                  Don't we always, it can't be helped, and Christmas just around the corner!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Of course the mind is immaterial, as Sparko has pointed out - with questions which you did not answer.
                    The ‘mind’ is immaterial but it’s activity can be tracked in the brain via electroencephalography (EEG), which uses electrical activity generated by the various cortical layers of the human brain.

                    Because it was created by a Rational mind?
                    No, this is utterly unsubstantiated speculation. A non-rational flower evolved to follow the sun because it depends upon photosynthesis from light for its energy.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Why should the brain be the only complex physical object in the universe to have an interface with another realm of being?
                      The way I like to hypothesize it is that there is another reality that is mental in nature that interacts with this reality that is physical in nature, at the quantum level. The quantum many-worlds theory is one of several that are currently hypothesized to explain quantum entanglement.

                      I suggest, that as evolution occurred in this physical reality, it found that by constructing certain physical constructs (namely certain types of neurons and connected in a certain way) it could amplify the quantum connection and gain useful evolutionary advantages by tapping into the mental universe and imbuing the physical forms that were evolving with increasing levels of mental function. As a result, our brains serve as an interface where the physical signals in this universe can generate mental realities in the world of the mind, and they in turn can send back physical signals which our bodies act on. That interface, can, of course, be impaired or destroyed.

                      The mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system.
                      I disagree. There's no science that would demonstrate that. And philosophically it's rather difficult to see how that could be the case.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        The ‘mind’ is immaterial but it’s activity can be tracked in the brain via electroencephalography (EEG), which uses electrical activity generated by the various cortical layers of the human brain.



                        No, this is utterly unsubstantiated speculation. A non-rational flower evolved to follow the sun because it depends upon photosynthesis from light for its energy.
                        and this immaterial mind can make decisions and control the physical body through the brain. the brain is an interface between the mind and body.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          The way I like to hypothesize it is that there is another reality that is mental in nature that interacts with this reality that is physical in nature, at the quantum level. The quantum many-worlds theory is one of several that are currently hypothesized to explain quantum entanglement.

                          I suggest, that as evolution occurred in this physical reality, it found that by constructing certain physical constructs (namely certain types of neurons and connected in a certain way) it could amplify the quantum connection and gain useful evolutionary advantages by tapping into the mental universe and imbuing the physical forms that were evolving with increasing levels of mental function. As a result, our brains serve as an interface where the physical signals in this universe can generate mental realities in the world of the mind, and they in turn can send back physical signals which our bodies act on. That interface, can, of course, be impaired or destroyed.

                          I disagree. There's no science that would demonstrate that. And philosophically it's rather difficult to see how that could be the case.
                          this is similar to what I was proposing. I just call this mental universe the spiritual world.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            this is similar to what I was proposing. I just call this mental universe the spiritual world.
                            Which means what exactly?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Which means what exactly?
                              exactly what I said.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Well, that's just silly talk. Most of us realize at an early age that there is really no such thing as ghosts. And even if there were, you'd end up trying to make sense of the same problem your dealing with now, i.e. how does the ghost do it, how does its mind work, does the immaterial ghost have an immaterial mind, does it's immaterial thoughts flutter about in space as things in themselves? Sparko can claim anything, but unless he has evidence to back up his claim of the existence of an immaterial realm and immaterially existing Info and thoughts, then the claim has little relevance.
                                Jim here is your evidence. Picture your dear mother in your mind. Now if I open your brain can I see the picture you see? I can even map your brain and know what part of your brain you are using to picture your mom. But I could never see what you see, that is because it is not material, it is not subject to materialistic inquiry. Neither are first person subjective experiences. Do you experience the color read like I do? Sadness? Theses things can not be known precisely because they are not material - yet they are real.

                                Wrong. That is your claim when it comes to rational minds, i.e. that they are rational because they came from that which is rational, but the flower is not rational.
                                That is silly, of course I believe that everything was created by God, so is rational to degrees, and will act according to its created nature.

                                Don't we always, it can't be helped, and Christmas just around the corner!
                                Just putting on our winter coat!
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                160 responses
                                508 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X