Life in Heaven.

[Jedidiah]

Don't be so frightened of questions mossrose. And what is wrong with my response to CBW? It's a question in response to his reply to the O.P. Perhaps you have an answer? Do you agree with CBW, that heaven will be different than earth, that due to the conditions there in heaven we will no longer sin?

There is nothing wrong with questions, but you are not asking questions. You are just making snide comments thinly disguised as questions. Questions are good if they are really questiions.

[LeaC]

C'mon guys, it's really just a simple and legit question. If I didn't care to know what you thought about it, or even if you thought about it, then I wouldn't ask. To me, the idea of the crucible doesn't make sense if god is going to recreate you and the enviroment in heaven so that you don't sin, and that seems to be the only response I've gotten to this question so far. Is that it really? So my question is why the crucible, what's the point, if god is going to re-make the whole thing so that you will no longer sin in heaven? Anybody?

No clue why you think the idea of the crucible doesn't make sense. We learn more from struggle and hardship. The results of our learning have greater value and greater impact when it is harder to master. What's the point of being given all the answers and forced to agree?- which would be the sensible way to do it, based on the reasoning of your question. That is a complete misunderstanding of human nature... so, really, maybe you should just do your own research. Struggle for it!

[KingsGambit]

If you actually want to see a well argued representation of the Christian view of the afterlife, read Surprised by Hope by NT Wright.

[JimL]

All right, Jim. Since you ask so sincerely.

It's for His glory.

It shows His grace to change us here from sinful beings into redeemed beings.

But the crucible doesn't change us, that was my point. We are always sinners here on earth, correct?

It shows His love for us in His taking on human flesh and bearing the awful weight of every sin of every person who believes on Him on the cross at Calvary.

Perhaps, but that is besides the point of my question. If god created us in in the first place in the way it is said he will re-create us in heaven, then he wouldn't need to crucify himself in order to show his love.

It shows His mercy in His provision of a way back to Him through His sacrifice of His only Son.

But again, if he created us in the first place in the same way that it is said he will re-create us in heaven, we wouldn't need to find our way back

It shows His longing for us to be with Him and to be like Him by bringing us, in a glorified, sinless body, to be in His presence for all eternity where we will spend forever glorifying Him for what He has done for us.

Then again, since he needs to re-create us in heaven in order that we be like him, that is to make us not sinners, then why didn't he just do that from the get go?

It's all about God, Jim.

Okay, but the purpose of a crucible is to separate the impurities of the object, so however you define it, the task is never accomplished here on earth because as long as humans are earthy beings they will always be sinners, yes? They don't change, they don't becaome non-sinners until and unless god changes them after resurrecting them, correct?

[JimL]

No clue why you think the idea of the crucible doesn't make sense. We learn more from struggle and hardship. The results of our learning have greater value and greater impact when it is harder to master. What's the point of being given all the answers and forced to agree?- which would be the sensible way to do it, based on the reasoning of your question. That is a complete misunderstanding of human nature... so, really, maybe you should just do your own research. Struggle for it!

The point is that we don't change, we remain sinners until and unless god recreates us in heaven. So what's the point, if in the end god has to recreate us anyway, then why didn't he just do that in the first place?

[JimL]

There is nothing wrong with questions, but you are not asking questions. You are just making snide comments thinly disguised as questions. Questions are good if they are really questiions.

No, actually it's a question Jed.

[mossrose]

But the crucible doesn't change us, that was my point. We are always sinners here on earth, correct?

Perhaps, but that is besides the point of my question. If god created us in in the first place in the way it is said he will re-create us in heaven, then he wouldn't need to crucify himself in order to show his love.

But again, if he created us in the first place in the same way that it is said he will re-create us in heaven, we wouldn't need to find our way back

Then again, since he needs to re-create us in heaven in order that we be like him, that is to make us not sinners, then why didn't he just do that from the get go?


Okay, but the purpose of a crucible is to separate the impurities of the object, so however you define it, the task is never accomplished here on earth because as long as humans are earthy beings they will always be sinners, yes? They don't change, they don't becaome non-sinners until and unless god changes them after resurrecting them, correct?

You missed the most important words in my post, Jim.

It's for God's glory.

[JimL]

You missed the most important words in my post, Jim.

It's for God's glory.

I think many christians disagree with you concerning the purpose of the crucible mossrose. But can you be more explicit?

[Tassman]

Hmm... in that case, why does it matter in an atheistic worldview who is right? If we merely cease to exist, then we should eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you die.

Is that what you would do, "eat, drink, and be merry" if there was no prospect of an afterlife? Don't you have family and loved one's for whom you feel responsible and for whom you center your life? Is it only about what you believe you will get when you die that keeps you on the "straight and narrow. I feel sorry for you.

[Tassman]

You missed the most important words in my post, Jim.

It's for God's glory.

Doesn't God have enough "glory" of his own?

[Mountain Man]

For those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?

This answer is not for you, Jimmy, since I doubt the sincerity of your questions, but, rather, for people who might happen across this thread who are looking for a thoughtful answer.

There are a number of theories about heaven. One says that being in the direct presence of God will be so overwhelming that sin and rebellion will be effectively impossible for us. An obvious rebuttal is that this didn't stop Satan and one-third of the angels from rebelling, but perhaps human nature is sufficiently different from angelic nature that there's no direct parallel. Another theory says that having experienced sin and suffering on earth, and then the perfect joy of heaven, not a single one of us will have any desire whatsoever to return to the misery brought on by sin. A third theory says that our sin natures are tied to our corrupt physical bodies, and that when we enter God's presence and receive our perfect, incorruptible bodies, it will remove our desire and/or ability to sin.

Perhaps the truth is something else entirely. All we know for sure is that God has promised that there will be no sin in heaven.

As for "the point of this so called earthly crucible", that gets quite a bit more complicated and ties into the so-called "problem of evil". The short version is that in order to allow for the greatest amount of good, God gave us the choice to accept him or reject him, since, logically, someone choosing to do good is a greater good than someone who has no choice but to do good; more to the point, "good" is a meaningless concept if there is no potential for evil. This is, of course, an extremely simplified summary, so here's a longer essay for those interested in reading more:

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...oblem-of-evil/

[mossrose]

I think many christians disagree with you concerning the purpose of the crucible mossrose. But can you be more explicit?

No. As I knew from the start, you, and now Tass, are not interested.

Troll away.

[Mountain Man]

Is that what you would do, "eat, drink, and be merry" if there was no prospect of an afterlife? Don't you have family and loved one's for whom you feel responsible and for whom you center your life? Is it only about what you believe you will get when you die that keeps you on the "straight and narrow. I feel sorry for you.

The best answer I can give is Ecclesiastics 2:

[b]https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+2&version=ESV

[Sparko]

Heaven will actually be here on Earth, where we will be resurrected and live in glorified bodies eternally.

Basically Adam had a nature that could or could not sin. He chose to sin.
We have a nature that does sin. We can choose not to sin but our overall tendency is to sin. Like a drug addict. He might occasionally not get high, but eventually he is going to get high.
Once we are in our glorified bodies we will not sin any longer. I don't know if it is because we CAN'T sin in that body, or because we will never choose to sin. The bible doesn't say. Just that we won't sin.

It could be because by choosing God here, we are voluntarily giving up our "right" to choose to sin. I for one will give up that right eagerly. Or it could be that because we are constantly being filled with the Holy Spirit we will never choose to sin. And the purpose of this life is to show us how horrible sin really is, and it's consequences that we would never choose to sin.

The bible really doesn't go in to the details that much.

[Cow Poke]

Pearls before Swine, peeps.