Originally posted by JimL
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Life in Heaven.
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Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostC'mon guys, it's really just a simple and legit question. If I didn't care to know what you thought about it, or even if you thought about it, then I wouldn't ask. To me, the idea of the crucible doesn't make sense if god is going to recreate you and the enviroment in heaven so that you don't sin, and that seems to be the only response I've gotten to this question so far. Is that it really? So my question is why the crucible, what's the point, if god is going to re-make the whole thing so that you will no longer sin in heaven? Anybody?
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If you actually want to see a well argued representation of the Christian view of the afterlife, read Surprised by Hope by NT Wright."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAll right, Jim. Since you ask so sincerely.
It's for His glory.
It shows His grace to change us here from sinful beings into redeemed beings.
It shows His love for us in His taking on human flesh and bearing the awful weight of every sin of every person who believes on Him on the cross at Calvary.
It shows His mercy in His provision of a way back to Him through His sacrifice of His only Son.
It shows His longing for us to be with Him and to be like Him by bringing us, in a glorified, sinless body, to be in His presence for all eternity where we will spend forever glorifying Him for what He has done for us.
It's all about God, Jim.
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Originally posted by LeaC View PostNo clue why you think the idea of the crucible doesn't make sense. We learn more from struggle and hardship. The results of our learning have greater value and greater impact when it is harder to master. What's the point of being given all the answers and forced to agree?- which would be the sensible way to do it, based on the reasoning of your question. That is a complete misunderstanding of human nature... so, really, maybe you should just do your own research. Struggle for it!
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut the crucible doesn't change us, that was my point. We are always sinners here on earth, correct?
Perhaps, but that is besides the point of my question. If god created us in in the first place in the way it is said he will re-create us in heaven, then he wouldn't need to crucify himself in order to show his love.
But again, if he created us in the first place in the same way that it is said he will re-create us in heaven, we wouldn't need to find our way back
Then again, since he needs to re-create us in heaven in order that we be like him, that is to make us not sinners, then why didn't he just do that from the get go?
Okay, but the purpose of a crucible is to separate the impurities of the object, so however you define it, the task is never accomplished here on earth because as long as humans are earthy beings they will always be sinners, yes? They don't change, they don't becaome non-sinners until and unless god changes them after resurrecting them, correct?
You missed the most important words in my post, Jim.
It's for God's glory.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostHmm... in that case, why does it matter in an atheistic worldview who is right? If we merely cease to exist, then we should eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you die.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostYou missed the most important words in my post, Jim.
It's for God's glory.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostFor those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?
There are a number of theories about heaven. One says that being in the direct presence of God will be so overwhelming that sin and rebellion will be effectively impossible for us. An obvious rebuttal is that this didn't stop Satan and one-third of the angels from rebelling, but perhaps human nature is sufficiently different from angelic nature that there's no direct parallel. Another theory says that having experienced sin and suffering on earth, and then the perfect joy of heaven, not a single one of us will have any desire whatsoever to return to the misery brought on by sin. A third theory says that our sin natures are tied to our corrupt physical bodies, and that when we enter God's presence and receive our perfect, incorruptible bodies, it will remove our desire and/or ability to sin.
Perhaps the truth is something else entirely. All we know for sure is that God has promised that there will be no sin in heaven.
As for "the point of this so called earthly crucible", that gets quite a bit more complicated and ties into the so-called "problem of evil". The short version is that in order to allow for the greatest amount of good, God gave us the choice to accept him or reject him, since, logically, someone choosing to do good is a greater good than someone who has no choice but to do good; more to the point, "good" is a meaningless concept if there is no potential for evil. This is, of course, an extremely simplified summary, so here's a longer essay for those interested in reading more:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...oblem-of-evil/Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI think many christians disagree with you concerning the purpose of the crucible mossrose. But can you be more explicit?
Troll away.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Tassmoron View PostIs that what you would do, "eat, drink, and be merry" if there was no prospect of an afterlife? Don't you have family and loved one's for whom you feel responsible and for whom you center your life? Is it only about what you believe you will get when you die that keeps you on the "straight and narrow. I feel sorry for you.
1 I said in my heart, “Come now, I will test you with pleasure; enjoy yourself.” But behold, this also was vanity.[a] 2 I said of laughter, “It is mad,” and of pleasure, “What use is it?” 3 I searched with my heart how to cheer my body with wine—my heart still guiding me with wisdom—and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the children of man to do under heaven during the few days of their life. 4 I made great works. I built houses and planted vineyards for myself. 5 I made myself gardens and parks, and planted in them all kinds of fruit trees. 6 I made myself pools from which to water the forest of growing trees. 7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in my house. I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem. 8 I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the treasure of kings and provinces. I got singers, both men and women, and many concubines,[b] the delight of the sons of man.
9 So I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me. 10 And whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil. 11 Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun.
The Vanity of Living Wisely
12 So I turned to consider wisdom and madness and folly. For what can the man do who comes after the king? Only what has already been done. 13 Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness. 14 The wise person has his eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I perceived that the same event happens to all of them. 15 Then I said in my heart, “What happens to the fool will happen to me also. Why then have I been so very wise?” And I said in my heart that this also is vanity. 16 For of the wise as of the fool there is no enduring remembrance, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How the wise dies just like the fool! 17 So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me, for all is vanity and a striving after wind.
18 I hated all my toil in which I toil under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to the man who will come after me, 19 and who knows whether he will be wise or a fool? Yet he will be master of all for which I toiled and used my wisdom under the sun. This also is vanity. 20 So I turned about and gave my heart up to despair over all the toil of my labors under the sun, 21 because sometimes a person who has toiled with wisdom and knowledge and skill must leave everything to be enjoyed by someone who did not toil for it. This also is vanity and a great evil. 22 What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun? 23 For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity.
24 There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment[c] in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God, 25 for apart from him[d] who can eat or who can have enjoyment? 26 For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+2&version=ESVSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Heaven will actually be here on Earth, where we will be resurrected and live in glorified bodies eternally.
Basically Adam had a nature that could or could not sin. He chose to sin.
We have a nature that does sin. We can choose not to sin but our overall tendency is to sin. Like a drug addict. He might occasionally not get high, but eventually he is going to get high.
Once we are in our glorified bodies we will not sin any longer. I don't know if it is because we CAN'T sin in that body, or because we will never choose to sin. The bible doesn't say. Just that we won't sin.
It could be because by choosing God here, we are voluntarily giving up our "right" to choose to sin. I for one will give up that right eagerly. Or it could be that because we are constantly being filled with the Holy Spirit we will never choose to sin. And the purpose of this life is to show us how horrible sin really is, and it's consequences that we would never choose to sin.
The bible really doesn't go in to the details that much.
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