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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Pearls before Swine, peeps.
    I don't bother trying to convince JimL but others might wander by and want to read an answer. I had this question once myself, and my answer above is what my pastor told me. After all, Satan and many of the angels, created with a perfect nature also sinned and they already were in heaven and had no temptation test. So it can't just be nature can it? I think the fact that we have to live with sin and see how sin has destroyed this creation is part of why we won't sin when we have a glorified nature. But that's just my theory. The bible doesn't really say why we won't sin in heaven.

    What's your idea?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I don't bother trying to convince JimL but others might wander by and want to read an answer. I had this question once myself, and my answer above is what my pastor told me. After all, Satan and many of the angels, created with a perfect nature also sinned and they already were in heaven and had no temptation test. So it can't just be nature can it? I think the fact that we have to live with sin and see how sin has destroyed this creation is part of why we won't sin when we have a glorified nature. But that's just my theory. The bible doesn't really say why we won't sin in heaven.

      What's your idea?
      I think I'll spend the first million years walking around Heaven thinking ... WOW... it's NOTHING like I imagined! Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


      But something like this is much too precious for me to debate with anti-Christian bigots.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I don't bother trying to convince JimL but others might wander by and want to read an answer. I had this question once myself, and my answer above is what my pastor told me. After all, Satan and many of the angels, created with a perfect nature also sinned and they already were in heaven and had no temptation test. So it can't just be nature can it? I think the fact that we have to live with sin and see how sin has destroyed this creation is part of why we won't sin when we have a glorified nature. But that's just my theory. The bible doesn't really say why we won't sin in heaven.
        “Sin”, “Satan”, “angels” “glorified nature” etc, etc, etc, just listen to yourself. What’s the evidence for any of this unsubstantiated farrago of prescientific nonsense?
        Last edited by Tassman; 11-19-2018, 11:41 PM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          As opposed to the self-serving arrogance of the “saved”, you mean?
          No, I mean the Drama Queenery of the anti-Christian bigot who is only here to spew forth his hate and disdain.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I think I'll spend the first million years walking around Heaven thinking ... WOW... it's NOTHING like I imagined! Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
            You will be dead and buried and never know that your deluded beliefs were based on wishful thinking.

            But something like this is much too precious for me to debate with anti-Christian bigots.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              No, I mean the Drama Queenery of the anti-Christian bigot who is only here to spew forth his hate and disdain.
              I'm here to question your escapist fantasises, sweetness. So let's not be a "DRAMA QUEEN" about this, to appropriate your favorite go-to insult.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                C'mon guys, it's really just a simple and legit question. If I didn't care to know what you thought about it, or even if you thought about it, then I wouldn't ask.
                How bout proving your sincerity by requesting that Tass withdraw from using your thread to mock Christians, Jim?

                I'll go ahead and unsubscribe so I don't antagonize him further.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  How bout proving your sincerity by requesting that Tass withdraw from using your thread to mock Christians, Jim?

                  I'll go ahead and unsubscribe so I don't antagonize him further.
                  I'll withdraw CP seeing as your beliefs are not to be questioned. Go to it.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    This answer is not for you, Jimmy, since I doubt the sincerity of your questions, but, rather, for people who might happen across this thread who are looking for a thoughtful answer.

                    There are a number of theories about heaven. One says that being in the direct presence of God will be so overwhelming that sin and rebellion will be effectively impossible for us.
                    In what sense will you be in the direct presence of god in heaven that you are not in his direct presence here on earth?

                    Another theory says that having experienced sin and suffering on earth, and then the perfect joy of heaven, not a single one of us will have any desire whatsoever to return to the misery brought on by sin.
                    Well we've already gone over that one. If the enviroment of heaven, you know, no sickness, no hunger, no war, no pain, etc etc., is one that makes us not want to sin, then the question is why didn't god create that environment for us in the first place?


                    A third theory says that our sin natures are tied to our corrupt physical bodies, and that when we enter God's presence and receive our perfect, incorruptible bodies, it will remove our desire and/or ability to sin.
                    Again, we have gone over this as well MM. It's the whole point of the question. If we need be changed, incorruptible bodies and all, in order that we not sin, then the so called crucible of earth would make no sense.
                    Perhaps the truth is something else entirely. All we know for sure is that God has promised that there will be no sin in heaven.
                    Well, actually, all we know is that the bible says there will be no sin in heaven, which you believe to be gods word. But that's why I'm asking the question, if you can't make sense of it then why should it be believed to be the word of god, rather than the dreamed of vision of men?
                    As for "the point of this so called earthly crucible", that gets quite a bit more complicated and ties into the so-called "problem of evil". The short version is that in order to allow for the greatest amount of good, God gave us the choice to accept him or reject him, since, logically, someone choosing to do good is a greater good than someone who has no choice but to do good; more to the point, "good" is a meaningless concept if there is no potential for evil. This is, of course, an extremely simplified summary, so here's a longer essay for those interested in reading more:

                    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...oblem-of-evil/
                    That doesn't make sense either MM. If God truely wanted us to choose to accept or reject him then he would make himself absolutely known to us as would be the case if, like satan, he created us in his heavenly presence in the first place.

                    The point is that the idea of the crucible doesn't make a lick of sense if in the end god has to change us, or the environment in which we live, in order that we not sin and I haven't seen a legitimate logical answer to that yet.
                    Last edited by JimL; 11-20-2018, 08:56 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      No. As I knew from the start, you, and now Tass, are not interested.

                      Troll away.
                      Mossy, it seems you are just afraid of questions. Just because we ask, and don't agree with the logic of your answers, doesn't mean we are trolling.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        The best answer I can give is Ecclesiastics 2:

                        1 I said in my heart, “Come now, I will test you with pleasure; enjoy yourself.” But behold, this also was vanity.[a] 2 I said of laughter, “It is mad,” and of pleasure, “What use is it?” 3 I searched with my heart how to cheer my body with wine—my heart still guiding me with wisdom—and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the children of man to do under heaven during the few days of their life. 4 I made great works. I built houses and planted vineyards for myself. 5 I made myself gardens and parks, and planted in them all kinds of fruit trees. 6 I made myself pools from which to water the forest of growing trees. 7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in my house. I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem. 8 I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the treasure of kings and provinces. I got singers, both men and women, and many concubines,[b] the delight of the sons of man.

                        9 So I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me. 10 And whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil. 11 Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun.
                        The Vanity of Living Wisely

                        12 So I turned to consider wisdom and madness and folly. For what can the man do who comes after the king? Only what has already been done. 13 Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness. 14 The wise person has his eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I perceived that the same event happens to all of them. 15 Then I said in my heart, “What happens to the fool will happen to me also. Why then have I been so very wise?” And I said in my heart that this also is vanity. 16 For of the wise as of the fool there is no enduring remembrance, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How the wise dies just like the fool! 17 So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me, for all is vanity and a striving after wind.

                        18 I hated all my toil in which I toil under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to the man who will come after me, 19 and who knows whether he will be wise or a fool? Yet he will be master of all for which I toiled and used my wisdom under the sun. This also is vanity. 20 So I turned about and gave my heart up to despair over all the toil of my labors under the sun, 21 because sometimes a person who has toiled with wisdom and knowledge and skill must leave everything to be enjoyed by someone who did not toil for it. This also is vanity and a great evil. 22 What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun? 23 For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity.

                        24 There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment[c] in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God, 25 for apart from him[d] who can eat or who can have enjoyment? 26 For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.

                        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+2&version=ESV
                        That whole passage, it isn't wisdom, it simply presupposes God as is made clear in the last paragragh, summerized as: "The simple pleasures in life comes from god." Well, the simple pleasures in life exist whether you attribute them to god or not. But not pertinent to the O.P.

                        If the crucible doesn't turn believers into non sinners, then what is the point of the crucible?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Mossy, it seems you are just afraid of questions. Just because we ask, and don't agree with the logic of your answers, doesn't mean we are trolling.
                          I'm not afraid of questions, Jim. I answered you to the best of my ability.

                          Carry on with your disagreement of our knowledge of scripture and the character of God.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Heaven will actually be here on Earth, where we will be resurrected and live in glorified bodies eternally.
                            But "heaven and earth shall pass away." No?
                            Basically Adam had a nature that could or could not sin. He chose to sin.
                            .
                            Yes Sparko, they were human just like us.

                            We have a nature that does sin. We can choose not to sin but our overall tendency is to sin. Like a drug addict. He might occasionally not get high, but eventually he is going to get high.
                            So Adam was just a social drinker and we are alcoholics? Did you make that comparison up in your own head there, Sparko?

                            Once we are in our glorified bodies we will not sin any longer. I don't know if it is because we CAN'T sin in that body, or because we will never choose to sin. The bible doesn't say. Just that we won't sin.
                            In either case, it leaves no purpose for the so called crucible of earth since in the end we, and or, our environment, would need be recreated in order that we are either unable to sin, or choose not to sin.
                            It could be because by choosing God here, we are voluntarily giving up our "right" to choose to sin. I for one will give up that right eagerly.
                            You mean you would give up your free will? Interesting. So, the purpose of the crucible from this perspective is to give us the choice to be free willed or to be robots, and your choice would be to be a robot?

                            Or it could be that because we are constantly being filled with the Holy Spirit we will never choose to sin. And the purpose of this life is to show us how horrible sin really is, and it's consequences that we would never choose to sin.
                            Oh please, if that were the case then we would choose not to sin here and now, not just because we die. And again, if it is because we are all of a sudden filled with the holy spirit, whatever that might mean, then it is because we were recreated and filled with the holy spirit. So again, no point in the crucible.
                            The bible really doesn't go in to the details that much.
                            I wonder why?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I'm not afraid of questions, Jim. I answered you to the best of my ability.

                              Carry on with your disagreement of our knowledge of scripture and the character of God.
                              Pretty sure no answer would satisfy him anyway. He is not looking for answers but something to tear down.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Pretty sure no answer would satisfy him anyway. He is not looking for answers but something to tear down.
                                I just wanted to see if any of you actually had, or cared to have a legitimate answer to a question that you yourself wondered about. You obviously don't have an answer, you say the bible doesn't give you an answer, and it seems you can't really come up with a logical answer as to the purpose of the crucible of earth. Again, in the end, if god has to recreate you, and or the environment, in some way in order that you no longer sin once in heaven, then there is no point in the crucible of earth.

                                Comment

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