Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

BGV theorem

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Reading the surrounding context shows that even if Vilenkin did write the text Craig presents, he added possible exceptions and circumstances in which his theory wouldn't apply - which typically you have ignored.
    No, I haven't ignored them, I even quoted such caveats.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Reading the surrounding context shows that even if Vilenkin did write the text Craig presents, he added possible exceptions and circumstances in which his theory wouldn't apply - which typically you have ignored.
      No, I haven't ignored them, I even quoted such caveats.
      Show me where you quoted Vilenkin's* (not Strauss's) exceptions and inapplicable circumstances.

      *Assuming they are actually Vilenkin's words, which there is still no reason to accept.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I believe that the view that the BGV theorem determines that the multiverse 'has to have a beginning' is flawed according to Guth who describes our universe being possibly in a pocket 'universe (pocket multiverse a possibly having a beginning).
        Well, how is it that the BGV theorem doesn't apply?

        This is an interesting article, because it cites different scientists and their perspective including some skeptics like Davies.
        There is even a quote by Vilenkin!

        Source: Alex Vilenkin

        Alex Vilenkin, a cosmologist at Tufts University in Massachusetts, explained that because "the space between these bubble or pocket universes is expanding very fast, room is being made for new bubbles to form, so there will be an unlimited number of pocket universes formed in the course of inflation."

        © Copyright Original Source



        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Well, how is it that the BGV theorem doesn't apply?


          There is even a quote by Vilenkin!

          Source: Alex Vilenkin

          Alex Vilenkin, a cosmologist at Tufts University in Massachusetts, explained that because "the space between these bubble or pocket universes is expanding very fast, room is being made for new bubbles to form, so there will be an unlimited number of pocket universes formed in the course of inflation."

          © Copyright Original Source



          Blessings,
          Lee
          It applies, because the interpretations for the BGV theorem do not lead to the necessary conclusion that anything has an absolute beginning of anything, and their could be an infinite number of pocket universes consisting of infinite numbers of universes, and the possibility of an infinite number of multi-verses.

          I consider the BGV theorem, the interpretations of the theorem, and the many other proposed hypothesis for the origins beyond our universe and any possible universes, and many possible multiverses to be possible speculative interpretations that are of course in peer reviewed publications, and at present remain open questions. At present you apparently do not consider the possibility of the alternate models, hypothesis, or as they may be called theorems. There is by far insufficient information to make meaningful conclusions as you are attempting to do concerning whether our 'physical existence' is finite and temporal, or infinite and.or eternal.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-23-2018, 09:17 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Well, how is it that the BGV theorem doesn't apply?


            There is even a quote by Vilenkin!

            Source: Alex Vilenkin

            Alex Vilenkin, a cosmologist at Tufts University in Massachusetts, explained that because "the space between these bubble or pocket universes is expanding very fast, room is being made for new bubbles to form, so there will be an unlimited number of pocket universes formed in the course of inflation."

            © Copyright Original Source

            Interesting that something called expanding space exists between the spacetime pockets that we call universes. That would mean that they are all, both the intervening space and the pockets, just one whole universe which of course leaves still the question as to whence the whole came from? Perhaps this whole, which itself would be unimaginitivley large, is itself just a pocket within an infinite unbounded greater cosmos. To me, nihil ex nihilo, that nothing comes from nothing, is more than likely true, because we have no evidence to the contrary, and that would mean that there is no such thing as nothing. The Universe, or greater cosmos, is infinite, and the finite pockets are not distinct from it, but are just temporally existing pockets within the infinite unbounded whole. Of course the religious, because we can't definitely prove otherwise, can't prove a negative, are perfectly within their right to believe that the material world was created out of nothing.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              Show me where you quoted Vilenkin's* (not Strauss's) exceptions and inapplicable circumstances.

              *Assuming they are actually Vilenkin's words, which there is still no reason to accept.
              Now we are nit-picking, but you claimed the BGV theorem assumes a beginning--how so?

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                It applies, because the interpretations for the BGV theorem do not lead to the necessary conclusion that anything has an absolute beginning of anything...
                Well, it does, given the initial conditions of a space-time universe.

                I consider the BGV theorem, the interpretations of the theorem, and the many other proposed hypothesis for the origins beyond our universe and any possible universes, and many possible multiverses to be possible speculative interpretations that are of course in peer reviewed publications, and at present remain open questions. At present you apparently do not consider the possibility of the alternate models, hypothesis, or as they may be called theorems. There is by far insufficient information to make meaningful conclusions as you are attempting to do concerning whether our 'physical existence' is finite and temporal, or infinite and.or eternal.
                But the BGV theorem is not a hypothesis, it is a limit on what we may expect in the way of hypotheses, again, given a space-time universe.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Interesting that something called expanding space exists between the spacetime pockets that we call universes. That would mean that they are all, both the intervening space and the pockets, just one whole universe which of course leaves still the question as to whence the whole came from?
                  Good question!

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Good question!
                    I think so, but it is a question, a question to which I believe I gave the most logical answer. There is no such thing as nothing out of which a universe was created.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Well, it does, given the initial conditions of a space-time universe.
                      Well . . . ah, it is not an absolute beginning, because it is a beginning from pre existing energy, and it is not necessarily even a beginning if the theorem or hypothesis for a cyclic universe or the beginning of a Black Hole universe. The concept of an absolute beginning is a philosophical/theological assumption.

                      But the BGV theorem is not a hypothesis, it is a limit on what we may expect in the way of hypotheses, again, given a space-time universe.
                      All the different theorems or hypothesis of origins involve our space time universe no matter what terminology you want to use.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        I think so, but it is a question, a question to which I believe I gave the most logical answer. There is no such thing as nothing out of which a universe was created.
                        I would word as there is absolutely no evidence nor concept in science for the philosophical/theological concept of absolute nothing in which a universe is created. As far as beginnings(?) go concerning our physical existence. None of the proposed theorems or hypothesis resolve this, and it remains an open question that is not like resolvable from the human perspective.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Well, how is it that the BGV theorem doesn't apply?


                          There is even a quote by Vilenkin!

                          Source: Alex Vilenkin

                          Alex Vilenkin, a cosmologist at Tufts University in Massachusetts, explained that because "the space between these bubble or pocket universes is expanding very fast, room is being made for new bubbles to form, so there will be an unlimited number of pocket universes formed in the course of inflation."

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          I think what Vilenken is saying here is that are an unlimited number of pocket universes in the course of inflation and therefore an unlimited number of beginnings..In short, no one absolute beginning.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Show me where you quoted Vilenkin's* (not Strauss's) exceptions and inapplicable circumstances.
                            Now we are nit-picking, but you claimed the BGV theorem assumes a beginning--how so?
                            So you didn't quote Vilenkin's exceptions, and rather than admit that and confess that you have ignored them, you want to change the subject.

                            BGV is based on the eternal inflation model, which is an extension of Big Bang theory. BGV assumes the Big Bang happened and considers the beginning of the period of expansion.

                            Now - why don't Vilenkin's apparent exceptions refute your assertion that a succession of universes must have a beginning?
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Now we are nit-picking, but you claimed the BGV theorem assumes a beginning--how so?

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              I am not sure what point you are trying to make here concerning assumptions of a beginning. None of the theorems, or whatever you want call them, assume the universe has a beginning. The only specific assumption, which is not an assumption, is that based on the evidence the universe is expanding. There are models. ie BGV theorem, that 'fit' the evidence that the universe began with the expansion from a dense 'singularity' of preexisting energy. There are models that fit the evidence that our universe is cyclic or began from a Black Hole. There is most definitely not a universal agreement among the scientists as previously cited here: https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-u...ultiverse.html
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                I think so, but it is a question, a question to which I believe I gave the most logical answer. There is no such thing as nothing out of which a universe was created.
                                So, an infinite regress of universes? But that is what the BGV theorem addresses.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X