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Skeptical response to Bart Ehrman's book in the historical Jesus

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    ...It is possible Jesus was a composite of a number of rebel Jews claiming messiahship as recorded by Josephus.
    I don't see how.

    Which messianic Jewish figure or figures do you have in mind here, and can you provide a convincing literary explanation from the gospel texts and traditions for the creation of a composite, fictional character?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Actually if you read more of Max's books ...
      Max? Who are you referring to here?
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        I meant, what writer of fiction would go to the trouble of creating a character like Jesus and give us virtually no biographical information?
        One who wrote within a different set of cultural expectations. One whose intent and scope is much more limited, or whose characters are meant to convey a message rather than be related to as people. There are limits to how much of modern fiction's traits can be expected in earlier works, but even modern fiction contains the necessary possibilities.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by NormATive View Post
          Yes, I have. It's wonderful poetry. I am most certainly on the same page as Gibran in terms of religion (minus the mysticism). I meant, what writer of fiction would go to the trouble of creating a character like Jesus and give us virtually no biographical information?



          True. I think that Jesus of Nazareth is a real character in the minds of those who tell his tales. What does it matter if he existed in reality or not? The philosophy that bears his name is just as real.

          NORM
          You can't really be that stupid can you?

          1 Corinthians 15:13-15
          New International Version (NIV)
          13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

          If Jesus was not real, and did not really rise from the dead then Christianity is completely in vain, and useless.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            You can't really be that stupid can you?

            1 Corinthians 15:13-15
            New International Version (NIV)
            13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

            If Jesus was not real, and did not really rise from the dead then Christianity is completely in vain, and useless.
            I can't speak for NormATive, but I fail to see how his position is "stupid". Especially since in the end, he may not be all that off the mark: IF Jesus was not raised from the dead, and hence IF the conventional understanding of Christianity is found to be in vain, this does not necessarily invalidate the whole religious movement. If there is one thing that Christianity has done fairly well throughout history, it is adapt.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              You can't really be that stupid can you?

              1 Corinthians 15:13-15
              New International Version (NIV)
              13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

              If Jesus was not real, and did not really rise from the dead then Christianity is completely in vain, and useless.
              Er, not exactly. Obviously Paul thought so, as do you. But just because Paul said so doesn't mean it's true.

              Put it a different way. One person holds that a given belief system is held to have merit only as a path to a specific goal. Eliminate the goal, and the path becomes meaningless. Another person holds that the same belief system has merit both in the path and in the goal. Eliminating the goal does not eliminate the merit of the path. Your response could be taken as the former. I lean towards the latter.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Max? Who are you referring to here?
                Sorry, thinking of the wrong person. It should be Bart.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  Er, not exactly. Obviously Paul thought so, as do you. But just because Paul said so doesn't mean it's true.

                  Put it a different way. One person holds that a given belief system is held to have merit only as a path to a specific goal. Eliminate the goal, and the path becomes meaningless. Another person holds that the same belief system has merit both in the path and in the goal. Eliminating the goal does not eliminate the merit of the path. Your response could be taken as the former. I lean towards the latter.
                  In this particular case, the "goal" is the reason the "path" exists. If the former isn't there, then the latter is pointless. Christianity would not be Christianity at all if not for the "goal". They are linked in such a way that they can't really be separated, at least in a way that it would still be Christianity.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Sorry, thinking of the wrong person. It should be Bart.
                    Thanks, I suspected that might be the case.
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Actually if you read more of [Bart]'s books you will find he does consider the NT and Christian Jesus Christ is to some extent a created Hellenized and Romanized 'myth' post destruction of the Temple. Like most historians, he supports that there was most likely a Jewish rebel Rabbi who preached in the time of the 1st century.It is generally accepted that a Jew called Jesus of Nazareth lived and preached in Jerusalem that he claimed to be the promised messiah and King of Jews. He was arrested and crucified under Roman Law for rebellion against Rome and claiming to be the 'King of Jews.' It is possible Jesus was a composite of a number of rebel Jews claiming messiahship as recorded by Josephus. ...
                    In what sense does Ehrman consider Jesus to have been a rebel? I've only read one of his popular works and I am familiar with his view in general but not all the details.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Thanks, I suspected that might be the case.
                      In what sense does Ehrman consider Jesus to have been a rebel? I've only read one of his popular works and I am familiar with his view in general but not all the details.
                      simply he was advocating rebellion against Rome, and the common punishment for this is to be crucified. I may go into this in ,ore detail, but it is the common view of many historians.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        In this particular case, the "goal" is the reason the "path" exists. If the former isn't there, then the latter is pointless. Christianity would not be Christianity at all if not for the "goal". They are linked in such a way that they can't really be separated, at least in a way that it would still be Christianity.
                        Do you think God prefers people who follow the path so that they can get into heaven, or do you think he prefers people who recognize the value of the path and follow it because it's the right thing to do? If there were no way for people to enter heaven, wouldn't God still prefer we follow the examples and guidelines provided? Is it still pointless if the reward is on this earth instead of in the next life? What do you think the Patriarchs would say? I very much disagree that the path only exists because of the goal. In fact, I think the repeated insistence on the goal is misguided. I don't read the OT and see expectation of reward as the motivation for obedience and service. Rather, I see God rewarding those who obey and worship no matter the cost. I see the same thing in the NT. I don't know where Christians took a wrong turn on that.
                        I'm not here anymore.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          simply he was advocating rebellion against Rome, and the common punishment for this is to be crucified. I may go into this in ,ore detail, but it is the common view of many historians.
                          Ehrman does not see Jesus as leading any kind of violent rebellion against Rome.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                            Do you think God prefers people who follow the path so that they can get into heaven, or do you think he prefers people who recognize the value of the path and follow it because it's the right thing to do?
                            That's just it, if Christianity isn't true, then it would be atheism. Then there would be no true right or wrong. Knowing this it would merely be "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die".

                            If there were no way for people to enter heaven, wouldn't God still prefer we follow the examples and guidelines provided? Is it still pointless if the reward is on this earth instead of in the next life? What do you think the Patriarchs would say?
                            That's just it, there wouldn't be any guidelines to follow.

                            If God existed in this scenario, and didn't provide a way to heaven, why would He care what we do in the meaningless interim of our lives?

                            In Christianity the great proof of God's love is that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. If He exists, and doesn't care enough to do that, He wouldn't care about us doing anything else either.

                            I very much disagree that the path only exists because of the goal. In fact, I think the repeated insistence on the goal is misguided. I don't read the OT and see expectation of reward as the motivation for obedience and service. Rather, I see God rewarding those who obey and worship no matter the cost. I see the same thing in the NT. I don't know where Christians took a wrong turn on that.

                            1 Corinthians 15:31-33
                            New International Version (NIV)
                            31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

                            “Let us eat and drink,
                            for tomorrow we die.”[a]

                            Then there's the fact that obedience/disobedience already had a reward/punishment dynamic to them in the OT.

                            Deuteronomy 11:25-27
                            New International Version (NIV)
                            25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

                            26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse— 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today;

                            I think you have either forgotten, looked in the wrong places, or expected too explicit mentions of this.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              That's just it, if Christianity isn't true, then it would be atheism. Then there would be no true right or wrong. Knowing this it would merely be "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die".
                              If you've got a serious case of false dichotomy going on. If Christianity isn't true, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist.


                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              That's just it, there wouldn't be any guidelines to follow.
                              That's more of the false dichotomy.


                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              If God existed in this scenario, and didn't provide a way to heaven, why would He care what we do in the meaningless interim of our lives?
                              You could ask the "why does God care" question about sending Christ. Who can fathom God's reasoning?


                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              In Christianity the great proof of God's love is that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. If He exists, and doesn't care enough to do that, He wouldn't care about us doing anything else either.
                              Piling non-sequiturs on top of false dichotomies isn't a good idea.



                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                              1 Corinthians 15:31-33
                              New International Version (NIV)
                              31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

                              “Let us eat and drink,
                              for tomorrow we die.”[a]
                              As I said in my first response to you, that you and Paul claim thus doesn't make it so.


                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              Then there's the fact that obedience/disobedience already had a reward/punishment dynamic to them in the OT.

                              Deuteronomy 11:25-27
                              New International Version (NIV)
                              25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

                              26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse— 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today;
                              You're proving my point. There doesn't have to be a salvific goal, nor would one be expected.


                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              I think you have either forgotten, looked in the wrong places, or expected too explicit mentions of this.
                              That must be it.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                                I think you have either forgotten, looked in the wrong places, or expected too explicit mentions of this.
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                That must be it.
                                This sounds a lot snarkier than it was intended. It's kind of a cheap shot on your part to imply that my knowledge is faulty somehow as opposed to allowing that I could form a different conclusion with the same set of information. I could turn it around and say that you've forgotten or are looking in the wrong places. Intended or not, it comes across as a reason to dismiss conclusions without actually engaging the reasoning behind them.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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