Thoughts on Capitalism and Socialism as economic models

[Roy]

As I suspected... you're using a very loose definition of "democracy". For example, you included New Zealand in your list, but according to the official government website, your country is, in fact, a "constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system of government".

According to the government, North Korea is a Democratic People's Republic.

The United Kingdom is also governed by an elected parliament who make decisions that may or may not align with the will of the people.

Recently the UK is governed by an elected parliament that follows decisions by the people that don't reflect the will of the people. Far too many idiots think referenda are votes of confidence in the parties that propose them

Wikipedia describes Denmark's government as "a parliamentary representative democracy, a constitutional monarchy and a decentralised unitary state". Same with Australia. Switzerland allows direct voting by the people on certain measures, but they must also be approved by a government vote. And on down your list. None of them are direct or "pure" democracies.

So? No-one said they were. Starlight only said they were the purest democracies, not that they were pure democracies. The new ruler of Oz is aflame...

[Mountain Man]

Here's what I asked:

Which countries are governed by pure democracies?

[carpedm9587]

There have been previous instances in history where it has seemed like technology would make lots of people unemployed. (e.g. the invention of automated looms in the industrial revolution meaning 1 person could do all the weaving that it had previously taken dozens of people to do) And instead what happened was that the people simply got different jobs.

Back at the beginning of agriculture every family in the village had to work the land in order to get enough food at harvest to survive, but with modern inventions such as tractors / irrigation / pesticides / improved crops, the average farmer can now produce enough food to feed ~150 families. Those 150 families rather than becoming unemployed as their farming is no longer required, have instead gone on to do other jobs producing other goods and services, so the total production of society is much much higher in total.

So while it is certainly possible that this time will in fact be different, and this time the displaced people won't be able to get different jobs, I haven't seen any good arguments to that effect.

I would say, right now, the difference is scale and the availability of artificial intelligence. Scale in that automation is not hitting a particular industry with a particular invention. Artificial intelligence is creating avenues for automating essentially every work environment to one degree or another, at the same time that the human population is closing in on 8 billion. Obviously, I cannot know the future - but I do not see the pace of change slowing. I suspect that one of the two avenues I outlined is an almost inevitable outcome.

Didn't you tell me two days ago in the other thread that you didn't think business profits should be taxed when I said they should?

I did - and I recognize the inconsistency. I am not sure where these taxes would arise from in the case of a basic universal wage: the end-recipients of the excess wealth, or the businesses used to generate it.

I would personally tend to use a wealth tax to fund a basic income if I were setting policy. Nearly all wealth in the world exists in two places which each comprise about 50% of total wealth (pretty much everything else put together is a rounding error by comparison): (1) Urban real estate, (2) Stock markets. So a fairly straightforward policy would be to stick a ~1-5% per annum tax on the value of all property and all stocks, and pool that money and dish it out to everyone equally as a universal income (that's easier than trying to tax wealth directly as people can hide total wealth in many and various ways).

I have not thought all of this through, frankly. I am still trying to work some of it out. But I do recognize that there is an implicit injustice when one person walks away from a business that makes X with hundreds of millions of dollars, and the individuals who make up the rank and file of that business are living on subsistence wages or having to work an extra job to make ends meet. Yes, I recognize that some people have what it takes to start a company, and that a pay discrepancy is to be expected. It is not the pay discrepancy that bothers me - it's the gap. a 1:10,000 pay discrepancy simply is not just. It suggests that one person's work can be 10,000 times more valuable than another person's.

Wealth is not the problem. Theft is.

[carpedm9587]

People will use the automation as a tool. Just as they always have. If automation does eliminate one sector, it will open up new ones. Jobs shift. When digital music and video came along, and the internet and youtube, the music and movie industries worried about record and DVD sales plummeting and putting people out of work. Well yeah, record stores started closing down, but others actually opened up, and buying retro vinyl became a thing. The movie and music industry moved from a Disk and Album model to selling digital music and supplementing income with advertising on youtube. And now anyone can be a celebrity on youtube and millions are, but that didn't put hollywood out of business.

Markets shift. Jobs shift. I can't tell you where it will end up. If I could, I would probably get rich playing the stock market. But I have faith it will because it always has.

An odd position for someone to take, when your political hero is a man trying to revive industries that are inevitably going to die. It's not a matter of if - it's a matter of when.

[carpedm9587]

In order, from my previous link the following countries are judged to have the best-functioning democracies:
Norway, Iceland, Sweden, New Zealand, Denmark, Ireland, Canada, Australia, Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, UK.

Cool list. I wonder what their criteria for "full" versus "flawed" is.

[Cow Poke]

...when your political hero...

Carpe, seriously, this is JimL level stuff.

[Sparko]

An odd position for someone to take, when your political hero is a man trying to revive industries that are inevitably going to die. It's not a matter of if - it's a matter of when.

When industries die of their own accord they usually do do naturally and over time, which gives people time to adjust. When records stopped being produced they weren't forced out of business. They went out gradually as people bought fewer of them and more CDs. Then as digital music became more popular people bought fewer CDs. People and the industries adjusted naturally.

I am all for a free market deciding what happens.

[Mountain Man]

Cool list. I wonder what their criteria for "full" versus "flawed" is.

Especially since the US is categorized as "flawed" but easily fits the article's description of "full".

[Mountain Man]

When industries die of their own accord they usually do do naturally and over time, which gives people time to adjust. When records stopped being produced they weren't forced out of business. They went out gradually as people bought fewer of them and more CDs. Then as digital music became more popular people bought fewer CDs. People and the industries adjusted naturally.

I am all for a free market deciding what happens.

Vinyl, curiously enough, is having a small resurgence as an overpriced collector's item for "audiophiles" who are still under the delusion that it's the ideal medium for music reproduction.

[Cow Poke]

Vinyl, curiously enough, is having a small resurgence as an overpriced collector's item for "audiophiles" who are still under the delusion that it's the ideal medium for music reproduction.

I have a whole bunch of old Gospel albums which have turned into a rather lucrative side business.

[carpedm9587]

Carpe, seriously, this is JimL level stuff.

I am pretty sure Sparko has been clear about his support for Mr. Trump. I cannot recall him saying a single thing criticizing him, and he races to the defense at incident after incident. If that's not the behavior of someone with a "political hero," I don't know what is. I would put MM, Jedidiah, and BTC in the same group. You and OBP not so much. At least I have seen a willingness to critique the man from you two.

[Cow Poke]

I am pretty sure Sparko has been clear about his support for Mr. Trump. I cannot recall him saying a single thing criticizing him, and he races to the defense at incident after incident. If that's not the behavior of someone with a "political hero," I don't know what is. I would put MM, Jedidiah, and BTC in the same group. You and OBP not so much. At least I have seen a willingness to critique the man from you two.

I just think it's beneath the standard you seemed to be wanting to establish, but, OK... whatever!

[carpedm9587]

When industries die of their own accord they usually do do naturally and over time, which gives people time to adjust. When records stopped being produced they weren't forced out of business. They went out gradually as people bought fewer of them and more CDs. Then as digital music became more popular people bought fewer CDs. People and the industries adjusted naturally.

I am all for a free market deciding what happens.

So would you have been OK with allowing the lead industry to simply "die a natural death?" Industries protect themselves against failure. So when an industry like the lead industry begins being challenged because the science is showing that their product is very harmful - they rally the advertising dollars, pay some compromised scientists or pseudo-scientists, and begin to flood the market with false information - or skewed information - to throw doubt and protect their financial interests. Given their size and power - their success at doing this is enormous. Big tobacco. Big sugar. Big lead. Big fossil fuels. And then we pay for that long after the business "dies naturally."

Indeed, many don't ever die. Big tobacco lost significantly in the U.S., so they took their product overseas and are now happily poisoning people in developing countries - a fine representation of American values: here - buy our product. Yes, it will probably kill you - but at least we'll still be making money!

Sorry, Sparko, but no market should ever be "free." Every market should be regulated and monitored. The bigger it gets, the more scrutiny it should get.

[carpedm9587]

Especially since the US is categorized as "flawed" but easily fits the article's description of "full".

So first - thanks for pointing out the definitions. I was looking at the table and looking for a link. I had not scanned the entire article.

And based on the definitions - the U.S. fits in the "flawed" category far better than the "full" category.

[carpedm9587]

I just think it's beneath the standard you seemed to be wanting to establish, but, OK... whatever!

You think seeing Trump as Sparko's "political hero" is an uncivil pejorative?

You are putting a lot more into that expression than I did.

I'd be curious to know if Sparko found it equally offensive...