Thoughts on Capitalism and Socialism as economic models

[Cow Poke]

You think seeing Trump as Sparko's "political hero" is an uncivil pejorative?

You are putting a lot more into that expression than I did.

I'd be curious to know if Sparko found it equally offensive...

It just seems like you're joining in on the asinine claims by JimL and Tassman that somebody is a "Trump Supporter" just because they voted for the lesser of two evils 2 years ago.

HOWEVER - you're right - it's up to Sparko if he objects to you deciding Trump is his "hero".

[Mountain Man]

And based on the definitions - the U.S. fits in the "flawed" category far better than the "full" category.

Not really.

But then I have to remember that liberals like you tend to be pretty cynical about the US, so I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that you feel that way.

[carpedm9587]

It just seems like you're joining in on the asinine claims by JimL and Tassman that somebody is a "Trump Supporter" just because they voted for the lesser of two evils 2 years ago.

HOWEVER - you're right - it's up to Sparko if he objects to you deciding Trump is his "hero".

Actually - I said nothing about the vote whatsoever. There are a small number of people I've encountered here that I cannot recall ever saying anything critical of Trump, and who immediately jump to his defense when someone else does. Voting for someone may not say "supporter," but that pattern of discussion certainly does.

You are not in that group because you appear to be willing (at least occasionally) to offer a critique of the man and his behavior and choices.

I have to admit that it will be interesting to see what you do in 2020 (assuming you are willing to share). Clinton is not likely to be the opponent, so the "I needed to vote against her" explanation won't be available. The judiciary, especially SCOTUS, has now been swung safely right for at least a couple of decades, so "I needed to protect SCOTUS" is no longer an explanation that is available.

So I'd be very curious to know if there is ANYONE on the massive list of "possible Democratic contenders" that you might see as "preferable to Trump" if they get to the GA.

[rogue06]

Not really.

But then I have to remember that liberals like you tend to be pretty cynical about the US, so I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that you feel that way.

I wonder how many other countries have a major political party who's members essentially despise their country believing that virtually everything the country has done (with the exception of a few things they did) in the last hundred years is evil and despicable

[carpedm9587]

Not really.

Yes - really...

But then I have to remember that liberals like you tend to be pretty cynical about the US, so I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that you feel that way.

Setting aside the incorrect political association, I have indeed become somewhat cynical about the U.S. and it's long-term prospects. But the classification as "flawed" seems fairly evident from a number of the dynamics currently going on in the U.S.: relentless attacks against the press and adoption of a media outlet by the executive branch, Operation Red Map and protected gerrymandering, a chief executive that has regularly advocating eliminating or diminishing due process, and the failure of the government to act on the will of the majority (even when it is overwhelming) in favor of partisan and economic preferences.

None of those attributes qualifies the U.S. to be in the "full" category. I'm not sure they ever did, but they certainly don't today.

[carpedm9587]

I wonder how many other countries have a major political party who's members essentially despise their country believing that virtually everything the country has done (with the exception of a few things they did) in the last hundred years is evil and despicable

What on earth party are you describing? Democrats?

If so - you are seriously indoctrinated...

[Sparko]

I am pretty sure Sparko has been clear about his support for Mr. Trump. I cannot recall him saying a single thing criticizing him, and he races to the defense at incident after incident. If that's not the behavior of someone with a "political hero," I don't know what is. I would put MM, Jedidiah, and BTC in the same group. You and OBP not so much. At least I have seen a willingness to critique the man from you two.

Me?



I have repeatedly said I don't like Trump as a person, that he is a complete narcissist, rude, and doesn't think before speaking. I Just finished telling Starlight I disagree with Trump about Pelosi. I also said I thought he was rude to Acosta and that Acosta did not assault the intern. I have said that I don't think his wall idea is practical. I don't like the fact he let Hillary off the hook. I have said that I wanted Kasich to win during the primaries, not Trump. I have said that I would rather Pence be President than Trump. I have said that the election was a decision between Nope and Noper.

What I do like about Trump is that he has tried to keep his promises as best as he could. The only reason he has failed is because of interference from the left. I also like his picks for SCOTUS and I like the way he trolls the liberals and drives them crazy.

I don't think you even bother to pay attention Carp. You have this idea of what we are like in your head and see everything through that "lens"

[Sparko]

So would you have been OK with allowing the lead industry to simply "die a natural death?"

The lead industry? What are you even talking about? You think there was an industry dedicated to lead poisoning or something? Do you think they don't make lead products any more? Do you know what fishing weights are made of? or bullets?

Industries protect themselves against failure. So when an industry like the lead industry begins being challenged because the science is showing that their product is very harmful - they rally the advertising dollars, pay some compromised scientists or pseudo-scientists, and begin to flood the market with false information - or skewed information - to throw doubt and protect their financial interests. Given their size and power - their success at doing this is enormous. Big tobacco. Big sugar. Big lead. Big fossil fuels. And then we pay for that long after the business "dies naturally."

Indeed, many don't ever die. Big tobacco lost significantly in the U.S., so they took their product overseas and are now happily poisoning people in developing countries - a fine representation of American values: here - buy our product. Yes, it will probably kill you - but at least we'll still be making money!

Sorry, Sparko, but no market should ever be "free." Every market should be regulated and monitored. The bigger it gets, the more scrutiny it should get.

I think you are getting off track.

[carpedm9587]

The lead industry? What are you even talking about? You think there was an industry dedicated to lead poisoning or something?

Do you know the history of the lead industry in the U.S.? You might want to look into it. At the end of the day, it's why we had Flint Michigan - and it's why most metropolitan areas in the U.S. are sitting on a Flint-like water supply time bomb.

Do you think they don't make lead products any more? Do you know what fishing weights are made of? or bullets?

Exactly my point. We know the incredible harm lead does, yet they still persist in putting out the products. For decades they have been slowly reigned back. In our state, led-free solder must be used in plumbing. Lead-free weights must be used in fishing. Why? Because some percentage come off the line and pollute our water, or get swallowed by a larger fish. Eventually, it gets into the food chain and into our diets. Lead has now been detected at significant levels in the flora and fauna of multiple states. Our local scout troop outlawed the use of any bullets or shotgun shells with a lead content for the same reasons: it peppers the ground and pollutes the flora - which then gets eaten by deer, moose, cows, etc. - which we then consume.

Before these things, the led industry was out suppressing the information that lead was "bad" and even putting out reports that lead was good for you! Meanwhile, paint continued to have lead, and there is still a massive problem with housing, especially older low-income housing, with led paint on the walls.

I think you are getting off track.

No - I'm not. Capitalism cares about one thing and one thing only: money. It is driven by the bottom line and will always sacrifice health, life, justice, and even liberty to the improvement of that bottom line. It is why businesses cannot be "free." They have to operate under law and regulation to hold them accountable. And that is especially true in this modern age of big data.

[Sparko]

Do you know the history of the lead industry in the U.S.? You might want to look into it. At the end of the day, it's why we had Flint Michigan - and it's why most metropolitan areas in the U.S. are sitting on a Flint-like water supply time bomb.



Exactly my point. We know the incredible harm lead does, yet they still persist in putting out the products. For decades they have been slowly reigned back. In our state, led-free solder must be used in plumbing. Lead-free weights must be used in fishing. Why? Because some percentage come off the line and pollute our water, or get swallowed by a larger fish. Eventually, it gets into the food chain and into our diets. Lead has now been detected at significant levels in the flora and fauna of multiple states. Our local scout troop outlawed the use of any bullets or shotgun shells with a lead content for the same reasons: it peppers the ground and pollutes the flora - which then gets eaten by deer, moose, cows, etc. - which we then consume.

Before these things, the led industry was out suppressing the information that lead was "bad" and even putting out reports that lead was good for you! Meanwhile, paint continued to have lead, and there is still a massive problem with housing, especially older low-income housing, with led paint on the walls.



No - I'm not. Capitalism cares about one thing and one thing only: money. It is driven by the bottom line and will always sacrifice health, life, justice, and even liberty to the improvement of that bottom line. It is why businesses cannot be "free." They have to operate under law and regulation to hold them accountable. And that is especially true in this modern age of big data.

I never said we shouldn't have any regulations. It's a balancing act. As little government interference as possible. Both extremes are bad. complete government control (socialism) ends up stifling creativity, production and freedom. No government control ends up with runaway greed. The markets take care of themselves for the most part and we end up with innovation, lower prices, and a higher standard of living under capitalism.

[carpedm9587]

Me?



I have repeatedly said I don't like Trump as a person, that he is a complete narcissist, rude, and doesn't think before speaking. I Just finished telling Starlight I disagree with Trump about Pelosi. I also said I thought he was rude to Acosta and that Acosta did not assault the intern. I have said that I don't think his wall idea is practical. I don't like the fact he let Hillary off the hook. I have said that I wanted Kasich to win during the primaries, not Trump. I have said that I would rather Pence be President than Trump. I have said that the election was a decision between Nope and Noper.

These things I have not seen, so I'll accept the correction. You know best your own mind and views.

What I do like about Trump is that he has tried to keep his promises as best as he could. The only reason he has failed is because of interference from the left.

On that we will have to agree to disagree. I think Trump was a politician from the get go and said what his constituents wanted to hear - then he followed through only on those things that got him most eyeballs and cheers from "his base." I think the reason those on the left see him as "following through" is because they have conveniently marked everything he has NOT done as "we took him seriously - not literally." I also think the data shows that the life of the vast majority of his base has NOT improved significantly since his election. I also think we saw that in the midterms, when the slide to the left continued, even in deeply rural areas. It wasn't enough to flip those deeply rural seats, but there is a pretty good chance it will be enough (if it continues) to deny Trump a second term. After all - three states - less than 100,000 votes - and all three states just elected Democrat across the board on the high end of their tickets.

I also like his picks for SCOTUS and

I can't say I am enamored. Gorsuch I didn't find too problematic, given he was replacing Scalia and preserving balance. Had Clinton won the court would have skewed strongly to the left. Kavanaugh was another animal, and resulted in the court skewing strongly to the right. As you know from previous posts - I am a "balance" man. We now have a judiciary out of balance.

I like the way he trolls the liberals and drives them crazy.

Trolling is the behavior of an adolescent, immature mind. I frankly don't see how anyone could "like" it or admire it or applaud it.

I don't think you even bother to pay attention Carp. You have this idea of what we are like in your head and see everything through that "lens"

That is true of everyone, Sparko. We all see everyone to the lens of what we have come to know/believe about them. The difference between us, however, is that I will work to adjust my view when someone points out an error in what I have said, especially if it is about what that person thinks or feels. On the other hand, you have consistently and repeatedly insisted that your view of my motivations, ideas, and opinions is "the right one," even when I have explicitly told you that you don't have it right. So on this one, I find your accusation more than a little ironic.

[carpedm9587]

I never said we shouldn't have any regulations. It's a balancing act. As little government interference as possible. Both extremes are bad. complete government control (socialism) ends up stifling creativity, production and freedom. No government control ends up with runaway greed. The markets take care of themselves for the most part and we end up with innovation, lower prices, and a higher standard of living under capitalism.

"Free market" typically means exactly that, Sparko: free. I have never heard anyone on the right who appeals to "free market" also then take the position "regulation is a good thing." Usually "free market" comes with "anti-regulation."

So you are saying you are not an "anti-regulation" person. Good - I'll accept that. So...can you identify any existing regulations that you think are necessary and do good?

[Sparko]

That is true of everyone, Sparko. We all see everyone to the lens of what we have come to know/believe about them. The difference between us, however, is that I will work to adjust my view when someone points out an error in what I have said, especially if it is about what that person thinks or feels. On the other hand, you have consistently and repeatedly insisted that your view of my motivations, ideas, and opinions is "the right one," even when I have explicitly told you that you don't have it right. So on this one, I find your accusation more than a little ironic.

Well, thank you for your superiority, Carp.

[Mountain Man]

I wonder how many other countries have a major political party who's members essentially despise their country believing that virtually everything the country has done (with the exception of a few things they did) in the last hundred years is evil and despicable

Openly despising one's own country seems to largely be a uniquely American liberal trait.

[Sparko]

"Free market" typically means exactly that, Sparko: free. I have never heard anyone on the right who appeals to "free market" also then take the position "regulation is a good thing." Usually "free market" comes with "anti-regulation."

So you are saying you are not an "anti-regulation" person. Good - I'll accept that. So...can you identify any existing regulations that you think are necessary and do good?

Free Market is an economic model of capitalism. It doesn't mean no regulations at all. At least not to me. I think for the most part the market works without any regulations. But sometimes I think the government might need to step in to prevent things like unfair practices, monopolies, criminal actions, etc.