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Thread: Things not spoken into existence.

  1. #71
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    twice between sentences it will break a post up so I can address one part at a time?

    Type [ quote ] for the start of the area you want to quote, and [ /quote ] after that part ends. You would do that without the spaces. Here is an example.

    With spaces.
    It also automatically inserts the hyperlink so anybody else can go back and see the context of what was being discussed.

    Without spaces.


    Doing it this way didn't link to the post, since I didn't use the "Reply With Quote" button for Cow Poke's post.
    Thanks much Cerebrum. Might take alittle practice but I'll get it down. Appreciate your assistance... and Cow Poke's too.
    Last edited by Jeff; 12-07-2018 at 12:25 AM.

  2. #72
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Sparko. As clear as I am able... the Word in the beginning is God made manifest in a form by which He will mediate between Himself and that which is not Him... creation. The Word in the beginning, therefore, is the One true God "made manifest" who Jesus himself spoke of as his Father revealed. The Son is he who was prophesied from the beginning as "the Messiah to come" who would be the very embodiment of the one true God... his Father and ours. This makes Jesus the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... our Lord and our God. All this without the illogical deduction that extends a son backwards into eternity past. As I have already stated, it would be unnatural for God to think equality with Himself not a thing to be grasped. But perfectly natural for a man equal to God to think this way. The difference is this: creation is not about a God the Father and a God the Son. It's about the one true God and His expressed image... the man Jesus Christ in whom the fullness of true God dwelt bodily... the Word in the beginning being the fullness of Him.

    Another angle: the Bridegroom exists for His Bride, and the Bride for her Bridegroom. One is not comprehended without the other. So too the Word exists for creation and creation for the Word... as the Son exists for His Church and His Church for Him... in whom the Word dwells bodily.

    All that to say this: Yeshua / Jesus is "...the Christ, Son of the Living God...". Period...
    I can't follow that at all. So the Word is the Son, who is God, who is the alpha and omega, who created everything, and yet the Son is not the Father and there is only one God? And the Word is not the Holy Spirit, who is also God?

    Sounds like the Trinity to me.

  3. #73
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I can't follow that at all. So the Word is the Son, who is God, who is the alpha and omega, who created everything, and yet the Son is not the Father and there is only one God? And the Word is not the Holy Spirit, who is also God?

    Sounds like the Trinity to me.
    No Trinity Sparko. Father, Son, Spirit converge in the fullness of time in Yeshua / Jesus. In order to place these in eternity past one would have to imagine flesh to be eternally existing there too. The Word made flesh is the man Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God. There is no other begotten Son. Begotten of woman not formed from the dust of the ground.

    It's so very simple. Mary was his mother, true God was his Father. Hence, "...the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". Don't you see, then, that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the Father? ...and consider this miracle of all miracles through this lense: "...I knitted you together in your mother's womb...". Yeshua as a child encountered these words in a Synagogue and heard the voice of his Father (and ours), that He was speaking of him. Glorious!

    In my heart and mind, Sparko, Yeshua, the Messiah, Son of the Living God is SOOOO far above the Trinitarian concept ...that I cannot even find the words. It means that when I finally see him face to face I will truly be like he is. A glorified man. The anointing I have from my Father has taught me these things.

  4. #74
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    No Trinity Sparko. Father, Son, Spirit converge in the fullness of time in Yeshua / Jesus. In order to place these in eternity past one would have to imagine flesh to be eternally existing there too. The Word made flesh is the man Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God. There is no other begotten Son. Begotten of woman not formed from the dust of the ground.

    It's so very simple. Mary was his mother, true God was his Father. Hence, "...the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". Don't you see, then, that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the Father? ...and consider this miracle of all miracles through this lense: "...I knitted you together in your mother's womb...". Yeshua as a child encountered these words in a Synagogue and heard the voice of his Father (and ours), that He was speaking of him. Glorious!

    In my heart and mind, Sparko, Yeshua, the Messiah, Son of the Living God is SOOOO far above the Trinitarian concept ...that I cannot even find the words. It means that when I finally see him face to face I will truly be like he is. A glorified man. The anointing I have from my Father has taught me these things.
    Sorry, but the only "anointing" you have is of ignorance. The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    Acts 5:3, 9 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?...Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    You've also made it so that the Word is nothing more than some kind of created demigod. You have The Word going from "was God", to "not God" once "the Word became flesh". This denies the meaning of the text, as well as Jesus' many claims to deity. You are picking and choosing verses to fit your ideas, and not taking all of the relevant information into account.

    Previously you spoke of your wrath that you were experiencing when I suggested you look into the history and reasoning behind the doctrine of the Trinity. I'm speaking of how it goes all the way back to Genesis, and can even find support in Jewish philosophers like Philo. There are also many links to God's Wisdom and Jesus, some He claims for Himself. Based on your response we are speaking of entirely different things.

  5. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  6. #75
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    It means that when I finally see him face to face I will truly be like he is. A glorified man. The anointing I have from my Father has taught me these things.
    Shouldn't this be in the Mormon forum?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  7. #76
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Sorry, but the only "anointing" you have is of ignorance. The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father.
    Good morning Cerebrum. It is your right to think this of me. Most do. Nonetheless I have counted costs and all that I have and am remain on the alter as I abandon myself to the only one who is worthy of my trust. I am not ignorant of the human deductions that abide in the sects. The whole world staggers about like a drunkard because of them. An unbiased scan of history from the Apostles to this day shows it. I see to begin with a harlot riding a beast in a relentless effort to gather to herself all nations, peoples and tongues. After much time this harlot gave birth to many daughters who became harlots themselves, all divided against eacother yet unified against their own mother. Death and destruction followed them. They all, each one, have woven nets of human deduction. They cast their nets out into the sea and over the peoples of the world who are likened to fish who have no ruler. They pull in their catch and are joyful and so they make sacrifices to their nets for by them their portion is fat. They set their nests high up and say "...we sit as queens! No calamity shall befall us!...". So then they established a pact in a new land giving their power entirely over to a new beast. One of their own making.

    So I enquired of my God asking "...how long O Lord shall this go on? Will these continually cast out their nets not sparing the nations?...". Habakkuk prophesied of our day. The Lord's answer is found there. John the revelator confirms in ch.10 of His testimony.

    History of the sects in a nutshell. As to the rest of your response... Will get back to you as time permits.

    Edit to add. The remnant of God is and has for centuries been scattered among the sects. I do make a distinction between centralized hierarchies and the laity. If it were not so there would be no need for a call from above to "come out". These things are coming quickly.
    Last edited by Jeff; 12-08-2018 at 09:59 AM.

  8. #77
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Good morning Cerebrum. It is your right to think this of me. Most do. Nonetheless I have counted costs and all that I have and am remain on the alter as I abandon myself to the only one who is worthy of my trust. I am not ignorant of the human deductions that abide in the sects. The whole world staggers about like a drunkard because of them. An unbiased scan of history from the Apostles to this day shows it. I see to begin with a harlot riding a beast in a relentless effort to gather to herself all nations, peoples and tongues. After much time this harlot gave birth to many daughters who became harlots themselves, all divided against eacother yet unified against their own mother. Death and destruction followed them. They all, each one, have woven nets of human deduction. They cast their nets out into the sea and over the peoples of the world who are likened to fish who have no ruler. They pull in their catch and are joyful and so they make sacrifices to their nets for by them their portion is fat. They set their nests high up and say "...we sit as queens! No calamity shall befall us!...". So then they established a pact in a new land giving their power entirely over to a new beast. One of their own making.

    So I enquired of my God asking "...how long O Lord shall this go on? Will these continually cast out their nets not sparing the nations?...". Habakkuk prophesied of our day. The Lord's answer is found there. John the revelator confirms in ch.10 of His testimony.

    History of the sects in a nutshell. As to the rest of your response... Will get back to you as time permits.

    Edit to add. The remnant of God is and has for centuries been scattered among the sects. I do make a distinction between centralized hierarchies and the laity. If it were not so there would be no need for a call from above to "come out". These things are coming quickly.
    None of what you said answers any of the questions I've asked. You seem to think you've got prophetic insight, but have forgotten the test for a prophet.

    Deuteronomy 13:1]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

    You're effectively trying to get people to follow another god when you deny the nature of God* as shown in the Biblical texts. So even if you were correct in your predictions, then you still fail the test.

    *Like Mormons do with regards to God being merely a glorified man.

  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #78
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Shouldn't this be in the Mormon forum?
    Hi Cow Poke. Hope the Sabbath day has been a good day for you and yours.

    So, what I meant was what is written in 1John 3:2. If Mormons believe this then at that point I wouldn't disagree with them... provided that they mean what the scriptures declare. Don't know Mormons well enough to know what they think.

    Besides, wouldn't Mormons be considered unorthodox by orthodoxy? What would be the difference then... Whether I post here or there.?
    Last edited by Jeff; 12-08-2018 at 06:43 PM.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    None of what you said answers any of the questions I've asked. You seem to think you've got prophetic insight, but have forgotten the test for a prophet.

    Deuteronomy 13:1]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

    You're effectively trying to get people to follow another god when you deny the nature of God* as shown in the Biblical texts. So even if you were correct in your predictions, then you still fail the test.

    *Like Mormons do with regards to God being merely a glorified man.
    Hey Cerebrum. Happy Sabbath day to you.

    So, I am a bit perplexed. Do you speak as if "for me"... or against? ...or for another reason altogether? Say... in defense? Can't always tell.

    Anyway, have I claimed to be a prophet? Just so you know where I place myself... I am nothing. Of myself I say "...I am what I am in the Lord..." ...translated, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. Me = 0, Christ =1... in the same body. Hence, coworkers with Him doing works prepared in advance for me to do... according to the scriptures.

    I am not a prophet. Just one who hears their words. So with their words I will run.

    Hmmm... twice now I am compared to Mormons. Interesting, since I know nothing of them. Anywho, you speak of a glorified man as if something to be reviled... even though this has been God's intention from the beginning... to make man in His image and likeness, and to give him dominion. What you seem to count dirty, God has made clean. Tell me, Cerebrum, what you think of Abraham. I see perfection in the eyes of my God. What do you see? Will you find fault in anything Abraham did? If so, you have not completely understood the grace of our Lord, or what the true nature of God is. How, then, are you to rightly to discern the nature of God in Yeshua?

    Though I am not a prophet I will tell you a truth by which you will be enabled to discern for yourself. God has nowhere commanded us to submit to the commands of men... irrespective of what men command. IOW, I have no command from God to submit to your doctrines... not inwardly or otherwise. In fact, I was born of the Spirit apart from the sects and accepted by my God without any knowledge of your human deductions. But as fate would have it I felt the need to be baptized as an act of obedience to the One who snatched me from death (literally in my case). I spent 14 years after trying to find a sect that was truly of God. There are none. And when I began to make waves a voice came to me from within saying "...let the weeds grow among the good plants. Do not uproot lest a good plant be plucked up...". And so I am where I am... in the wilderness alone with my Lord. But he is enough. Though I long for my true brothers I remain content where I am. I am not alone...

  12. #80
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Hey Cerebrum. Happy Sabbath day to you.

    So, I am a bit perplexed. Do you speak as if "for me"... or against? ...or for another reason altogether? Say... in defense? Can't always tell.
    I'm saying that if the law in Deuteronomy 13 was still in place you would received the punishment of a false prophet.

    Anyway, have I claimed to be a prophet? Just so you know where I place myself... I am nothing. Of myself I say "...I am what I am in the Lord..." ...translated, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. Me = 0, Christ =1... in the same body. Hence, coworkers with Him doing works prepared in advance for me to do... according to the scriptures.
    Yes, you kind of have. Here is the evidence of you doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Ya... wow. So, since you are familiar with this website and it's rules, can I realtime prophecy in the "eschatology" forum... or is it reserved for debate on what has been prophesied? Just curious since I have much to say concerning the times in which we all live. It's ok if I'm not allowed. I will abide by the rules as I learn them. For now I will stick to this forum and probably this thread until I am clear on the moderators expectations. Also, I do know that my views are not orthodox and so I do appreciate your and Cerebrum's willingness to engage. I thank you both for that.
    You're not doing anything "according to the scriptures", because you are ignoring the parts that don't agree with you.

    I am not a prophet. Just one who hears their words. So with their words I will run.
    In the quote I show you re claiming just the opposite.

    Hmmm... twice now I am compared to Mormons. Interesting, since I know nothing of them. Anywho, you speak of a glorified man as if something to be reviled... even though this has been God's intention from the beginning... to make man in His image and likeness, and to give him dominion. What you seem to count dirty, God has made clean. Tell me, Cerebrum, what you think of Abraham. I see perfection in the eyes of my God. What do you see? Will you find fault in anything Abraham did? If so, you have not completely understood the grace of our Lord, or what the true nature of God is. How, then, are you to rightly to discern the nature of God in Yeshua?
    There isn't anything wrong with a truly glorified man, as in a human who has received their glorified body from God at the eschaton. In effect saying Jesus is merely a glorified man is blasphemous since He claimed, and showed His deity.

    If you think Abraham was perfect you haven't read through Genesis lately, nor do you have a good understanding of human nature. Abraham laughed when God told him about having an heir come from Sarah, who was around 90 years old. The same thing Sarah was chastised for later. He also gave a half truth to Abimelek about his wife Sarah. There isn't anything in the text to suggest Abimilek had done anything to deserve being misled either. He did the same to Pharoah in Egypt when he was still called Abram. Then he also tried to make God's promise happen by having sex with Hagar, and thus Ishmael was born. No indication that he married her either, so that would be adultery.

    Though I am not a prophet I will tell you a truth by which you will be enabled to discern for yourself. God has nowhere commanded us to submit to the commands of men... irrespective of what men command. IOW, I have no command from God to submit to your doctrines... not inwardly or otherwise. In fact, I was born of the Spirit apart from the sects and accepted by my God without any knowledge of your human deductions. But as fate would have it I felt the need to be baptized as an act of obedience to the One who snatched me from death (literally in my case). I spent 14 years after trying to find a sect that was truly of God. There are none. And when I began to make waves a voice came to me from within saying "...let the weeds grow among the good plants. Do not uproot lest a good plant be plucked up...". And so I am where I am... in the wilderness alone with my Lord. But he is enough. Though I long for my true brothers I remain content where I am. I am not alone...
    Romans 13:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
    4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

    1 Corinthians 16:15-17 New International Version (NIV)
    15 You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the Lord’s people. I urge you, brothers and sisters, 16 to submit to such people and to everyone who joins in the work and labors at it. 17 I was glad when Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus arrived, because they have supplied what was lacking from you.

    Hebrews 13:16-18 New International Version (NIV)
    16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

    17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

    1 Peter 5:5 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

    1 Peter 2:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
    12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

    So much for the Bible not saying to submit to any man in any way.

    You say a voice came to you, and obviously think it is either from God, or from one of his angels. The problem is it contradicts His word, and therefor can't be either.

    1 John 4:1 [ On Denying the Incarnation ] Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    You haven't found sound doctrine, and reject parts of the Bible in order to hear what you want to hear.

    Hebrews 13:9 [Full Chapter]
    Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.

    1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

    Titus 2:1 [ Doing Good for the Sake of the Gospel ] You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.

    I take all of the Bible seriously, so I'm trying to get you to see where you've gone against sound doctrine. In case you don't listen, we are commanded to refute false doctrines.

    Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

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